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I think that you have missed the point. It is implied in his argument that if the level of racial bias in teachers is no different than in the larger population

I think that you have missed the point. It is implied in his argument that if the level of racial bias in teachers is no different than in the larger population, then there is a problem with racism in US teachers (as a result of their being a problem with racism in the US).

a1369209993 6y ago
> if the level of racial bias in teachers is no different than in the larger population, then there is a problem with racism in US teachers (as a result of their being a problem with racism in the US). And if the level of murder in teachers is no different than in the larger population, then there is a problem with murder in US teachers (as a result of there being a problem with murder in the US). Even under the grossly unsubstatiated assumption that there is particularly a problem with murder in the US - rather than some specific murderers (or white supremacists, as the case may be) who know perfectly well who they are and will not respond to 'raising awareness' about 'anti-murderism' - presenting that as "Murder by US teachers is in fact a big problem." is at best ridiculous cherry-picking.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  Replace "teachers" with "police" and you do get a reasonable argument. In a situation where someone has outsized authority and influence, even a baseline level of <bad thing> is worse than normal. If you're looking to affect outcomes most significantly, reducing "racism" amongst teachers is probably going to be more impactful per $ than reducing it amongst the general population.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    > Replace "teachers" with "police" and you do get a reasonable argument. Not really. I'm fine with a baseline level murder by police (at least to the extent that I'm fine with where that baseline is in the first place, which is admittedly not a given), provided there is also a baseline level of punishment for said murder. The problems with police tend be either that there is a higher level of murder by police than the general population, or that there is a lower degree of punishment for it. Also, of course, I don't grant that there is a problem with racism in the general population in the first place, since white supremacists and social justice warriors combined are substatially in the minority. You might be able to make a credible case that racial bias is a (minor but worth addressing) problem, but noone's done so lately, and you'd need to start by making it clear that the thing you're talking about is fundamentally distict from a explicit belief that one race is inherently better or worse/more or less valuable than another, as white supremacists and social justice warriors believe.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      We aren't talking about simply a baseline level of murders, but murders due to (or influenced by) racism. Even if you're okay with a baseline level of murders by police, whatever that level is, I hope you'd have problems with a distribution where the victims are solely black people (or to be more real-world, where murders of black people are punished less severely and less often, thus giving greater incentive [or equivalently, less disincentive] to kill people of a certain race). In such a situation, the same "amount" of racism/discrimination/implicit bias has an outsized impact due to who wields it. The same applies to teachers. If a random person believes that black people are predisposed to academic failure, that's bad sure, but won't negatively affect many black children. If a teacher who teaches black students holds that belief, that will influence how that teacher teaches those students. > social justice warriors belive This is a mischaracterization of what anyone I know who would consider themselves a "social justice warrior" believes, so I think at least some of your objection is due to a misrepresentation of the statements being made by these people.
    - ojnabieoot 6y ago
      joshuamorton, Anyone who says things like “social justice warriors believe one race is inherently better than the other” is just a toxic racist troll and not worth engaging with. It’s stupid and deliberately dishonest, not some good-faith misconception.

a1369209993 6y ago

> if the level of racial bias in teachers is no different than in the larger population, then there is a problem with racism in US teachers (as a result of their being a problem with racism in the US). And if the level of murder in teachers is no different than in the larger population, then there is a problem with murder in US teachers (as a result of there being a problem with murder in the US). Even under the grossly unsubstatiated assumption that there is particularly a problem with murder in the US - rather than some specific murderers (or white supremacists, as the case may be) who know perfectly well who they are and will not respond to 'raising awareness' about 'anti-murderism' - presenting that as "Murder by US teachers is in fact a big problem." is at best ridiculous cherry-picking.

joshuamorton 6y ago
Replace "teachers" with "police" and you do get a reasonable argument. In a situation where someone has outsized authority and influence, even a baseline level of <bad thing> is worse than normal. If you're looking to affect outcomes most significantly, reducing "racism" amongst teachers is probably going to be more impactful per $ than reducing it amongst the general population.
- a1369209993 6y ago
  > Replace "teachers" with "police" and you do get a reasonable argument. Not really. I'm fine with a baseline level murder by police (at least to the extent that I'm fine with where that baseline is in the first place, which is admittedly not a given), provided there is also a baseline level of punishment for said murder. The problems with police tend be either that there is a higher level of murder by police than the general population, or that there is a lower degree of punishment for it. Also, of course, I don't grant that there is a problem with racism in the general population in the first place, since white supremacists and social justice warriors combined are substatially in the minority. You might be able to make a credible case that racial bias is a (minor but worth addressing) problem, but noone's done so lately, and you'd need to start by making it clear that the thing you're talking about is fundamentally distict from a explicit belief that one race is inherently better or worse/more or less valuable than another, as white supremacists and social justice warriors believe.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    We aren't talking about simply a baseline level of murders, but murders due to (or influenced by) racism. Even if you're okay with a baseline level of murders by police, whatever that level is, I hope you'd have problems with a distribution where the victims are solely black people (or to be more real-world, where murders of black people are punished less severely and less often, thus giving greater incentive [or equivalently, less disincentive] to kill people of a certain race). In such a situation, the same "amount" of racism/discrimination/implicit bias has an outsized impact due to who wields it. The same applies to teachers. If a random person believes that black people are predisposed to academic failure, that's bad sure, but won't negatively affect many black children. If a teacher who teaches black students holds that belief, that will influence how that teacher teaches those students. > social justice warriors belive This is a mischaracterization of what anyone I know who would consider themselves a "social justice warrior" believes, so I think at least some of your objection is due to a misrepresentation of the statements being made by these people.
  - ojnabieoot 6y ago
    joshuamorton, Anyone who says things like “social justice warriors believe one race is inherently better than the other” is just a toxic racist troll and not worth engaging with. It’s stupid and deliberately dishonest, not some good-faith misconception.