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In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far be

by nickez 6y ago

In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks afaik. I was really surprised at how far behind Switzerland is compared to Scandinavia when it comes to digitalisation. Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. I also get all my bills digitally and all my receipts (even physical stores)

zo1 6y ago
If you think that's bad, look at the UK. They had a government-ID system with an ID card, and then they scrapped it. Now people run around using driver's licenses and municipal bills (I guess) to open bank accounts and other things. Utterly backwards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Documents_Act_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Documents_Act_2010 I've been formulating my thinking around it and I'm starting to think that this is some sort of new-age "luddism" at play, coupled with some odd distrust of government for this particular problem, as if government is trustable elsewhere.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- katbyte 6y ago
  What did the Goverment ID offer over a drivers license? Here in bc Canada drivers license is sufficient ID most places, and if you don’t drive you get bc Id which is just a drivers license without the driving part.
- robin_reala 6y ago
  There is an online identity verification service run by the UK government: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk-verify/introducing-govuk-verify https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk... Verification is done by third-parties in conjunction with government data. At the moment it’s only used for government services, but there has been talk for half a decade about expanding it to the private sector.
null_object 6y ago
I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are, who shares their household and so on. Almost every aspect of a Swede’s life can and is tracked by this system. Every time someone identifies themselves with this system, it costs the retail merchant or service a non-trivial amount of money. Because it’s effectively a private monopoly, that price is set by the banks, and often involves a lot of secret horse-trading behind closed doors (I’ve been involved with some aspects of this in the past). The secret negotiations also include terms that are not open to public scrutiny. One example, is that the merchant or service isn’t allowed to blame BankID for any problems such as downtime or any other technical problems. btw I’m curious how you get all your receipts digitally. There are some services such as Kivra in Sweden, but they definitely don’t cover all stores.
- nickez 6y ago
  I guess I only shop with stores that use Kivra. BankID doesn't store any information, and I have no problem that the stores I'm a member in store my shipping history. I think you are overstating the scale of the surveillance. I don't think the different entities share data with each other. Edit: try live in a country like Switzerland once you have gotten use to all interaction being online. It's horrible. Edit2: actually other stores provide digital receipts without Kivra. You just have to be a member. Edit3: This has nothing to do with patriotism, there are many things that I don't like about Sweden. But the fact that we have taken digitalisation seriously since the 90s is something I think is great.
  - null_object 6y ago
    > BankID doesn't store any information I work with systems that use BankID identification, and know for a fact that you are wrong, because many (though not all) of the data-points collected by the banks can be retrieved for payment. For instance, if you just logged-in with the service I work with, I can retrieve your full-name, birthdate, your marital status, name of your spouse, their birthdate, any children and their IDs and names, where you live, your home and cellphone number, and many many other data points. From a service owned by a small group of private banks.
kzrdude 6y ago
What about the danish NemId, how is it governed and owned, does anyone know?
- emptysongglass 6y ago
  Developed by Nets together with the banks similar to the Swedes. If you're looking for public ownership of the various organs and products that Danes interact with on a daily basis: it basically doesn't exist. Just about every software product at the municipal and state level is contracted out to an enormous private megalith that gets paid vast sums of money to execute. And they're nearly all Microsoft affiliate shops, if you were also hoping for some silver lining. I love my country but the continuing parceling out of everything to private companies has been greatly negative to many public services. See, as an example, the DOT syndicate, which has made it prohibitively expensive to commute via public transit (why in God's name is it cheaper to travel to Germany than take a train from Copenhagen to Odense?) or the bridge to Sweden we're still paying truly insane toll fees for despite having paid for its construction years ago.
  - throwaway473825 6y ago
    There's an important distinction between the systems in Sweden and Denmark. In Denmark, you don't need to have a relationship with a private bank to get NemID. The government also provides it. In Sweden, you are absolutely reliant on private banks. This gives those select few banks a position of power which they can - and do - abuse.
msvan 6y ago
Since it's closed-source, privately owned and not based on any open standards, it doesn't work on Linux or any mobile device that isn't using Google Play Services or iOS. It's convenient, but it's an absolute travesty that we've left such an essential part of digital infrastructure to big banks.
StanislavPetrov 6y ago
As a US citizen, being able to go to various physical places without being forced to patronize an opaque, unaccountable corporate behemoth owned by a conglomeration of banks that centrally tracks everything I do, every penny I spend, and what and where I spend it on is liberating.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
mongol 6y ago
Actually, we have several. BankID is the most well known, but there is also Freja eID.
- kalleboo 6y ago
  Right, the government just legislated standards for what can legally be considered e-ID, and its up to the market to implement it as they wish. Nothing is stopping anyone from developing and launching an open ID platform.
exoque 6y ago
> I also get all my bills digitally So do I. In Switzerland.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  All my bills are digital and paid digitally out of an account that I put money in every month digitally. In Texas.
  - kiwijamo 6y ago
    Same here in New Zealand.
tchalla 6y ago
Are you willing to give up your privacy to corporates to be liberated online?
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  most importantly, what about those that are not ? Is that decision made without their consent ?
  - 2rsf 6y ago
    It's not mandatory, there are, less convenient, ways to work without it
throwaway473825 6y ago
I live in Sweden. My bank (Swedbank) recently closed my BankID and told me that I either have to buy more services from them or look for another bank if I want to have an BankID (which is required for vaccination). Yeah, it really works fine. Fortunately, it wasn't too difficult to find another bank that didn't want to blackmail me, but the system has such obvious flaws that it shouldn't exist. To make matters worse, the current chairman of Swedbank is Göran Persson, a previous prime minister. I fear that there is some ugly corruption involved here.
belorn 6y ago
> In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks Try to have anything to do with the government without a bank account. The processes and system are today so integrated that many aspect of being a citizen are today impossible beyond giving the power of attorney to someone who do have a bank account and then let them do it. (Not hypothetical as this was the recommendation given by försäkringskassan). I would be much more happy with the system if the government operated a customer facing bank as a fallback, one which laws dictate so that all citizen critical functions are guarantied without a customer contract between a profit seeking company and a customer. It does not need to deal with loans, or give people interests, or handle stocks or any other aspects usually associated with banks. It just need to do basic banking for which everything else depend on in a cashless and internet based society. Until then, what we have is the merge of private banks, beholden to non-elected owners, and government. It is very hassle free as long one don't mind the soft version corporatocracy.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. The US has an incoherent assemblage of spare parts for an ID system and it's been years since I've seen the inside of a physical bank. You have bank credentials and use them with with the bank. You have post office credentials and use them with the post office. This is far better from a security and privacy standpoint that any kind of centralized ID. If someone steals your post office credentials they can't drain your brokerage account, ransomware your employer's cloud services in your name and take out a home equity loan against your house and convert it into Bitcoin. Centralized identity is a bug, not a feature.
- 2rsf 6y ago
  But aren't they all based on one central ID? how can the post office or bank know that you are who you claim to be without an official ID?
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    The post office doesn't need to know "who you are" except insofar as you have a payment method that works which they can charge postage to. The payment processor, in turn, just needs to know that you're authorized to draw on that account, which they know because you have the credentials established when it was opened. Functionally none of this actually uses your name for anything useful. Even giving it to them at all is, at best, a password reset method, and there are a million other ways to do that which don't require a centralized ID.
soco 6y ago
The fact that is technically possible was never argued. Swiss voted against banks controlling their entire lives' data, not believing it was a condition to get their bills digitally (which by the way work fine in Switzerland as well).

by nickez 6y ago

zo1 6y ago

If you think that's bad, look at the UK. They had a government-ID system with an ID card, and then they scrapped it. Now people run around using driver's licenses and municipal bills (I guess) to open bank accounts and other things. Utterly backwards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Documents_Act_2010 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Documents_Act_2010 I've been formulating my thinking around it and I'm starting to think that this is some sort of new-age "luddism" at play, coupled with some odd distrust of government for this particular problem, as if government is trustable elsewhere.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
katbyte 6y ago
What did the Goverment ID offer over a drivers license? Here in bc Canada drivers license is sufficient ID most places, and if you don’t drive you get bc Id which is just a drivers license without the driving part.
robin_reala 6y ago
There is an online identity verification service run by the UK government: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk-verify/introducing-govuk-verify https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introducing-govuk... Verification is done by third-parties in conjunction with government data. At the moment it’s only used for government services, but there has been talk for half a decade about expanding it to the private sector.

null_object 6y ago

I think pride and patriotism means you’re overstating your case here. Indeed as you say, a subgroup of the largest Swedish private banks own the ID system in Sweden - for profit, and without any serious democratic oversight. Edit: I forgot to add that the system allows these private banks to see into almost every aspect of a person’s life: where they shop, where they are, who shares their household and so on. Almost every aspect of a Swede’s life can and is tracked by this system. Every time someone identifies themselves with this system, it costs the retail merchant or service a non-trivial amount of money. Because it’s effectively a private monopoly, that price is set by the banks, and often involves a lot of secret horse-trading behind closed doors (I’ve been involved with some aspects of this in the past). The secret negotiations also include terms that are not open to public scrutiny. One example, is that the merchant or service isn’t allowed to blame BankID for any problems such as downtime or any other technical problems. btw I’m curious how you get all your receipts digitally. There are some services such as Kivra in Sweden, but they definitely don’t cover all stores.

nickez 6y ago
I guess I only shop with stores that use Kivra. BankID doesn't store any information, and I have no problem that the stores I'm a member in store my shipping history. I think you are overstating the scale of the surveillance. I don't think the different entities share data with each other. Edit: try live in a country like Switzerland once you have gotten use to all interaction being online. It's horrible. Edit2: actually other stores provide digital receipts without Kivra. You just have to be a member. Edit3: This has nothing to do with patriotism, there are many things that I don't like about Sweden. But the fact that we have taken digitalisation seriously since the 90s is something I think is great.
- null_object 6y ago
  > BankID doesn't store any information I work with systems that use BankID identification, and know for a fact that you are wrong, because many (though not all) of the data-points collected by the banks can be retrieved for payment. For instance, if you just logged-in with the service I work with, I can retrieve your full-name, birthdate, your marital status, name of your spouse, their birthdate, any children and their IDs and names, where you live, your home and cellphone number, and many many other data points. From a service owned by a small group of private banks.

kzrdude 6y ago

What about the danish NemId, how is it governed and owned, does anyone know?

emptysongglass 6y ago
Developed by Nets together with the banks similar to the Swedes. If you're looking for public ownership of the various organs and products that Danes interact with on a daily basis: it basically doesn't exist. Just about every software product at the municipal and state level is contracted out to an enormous private megalith that gets paid vast sums of money to execute. And they're nearly all Microsoft affiliate shops, if you were also hoping for some silver lining. I love my country but the continuing parceling out of everything to private companies has been greatly negative to many public services. See, as an example, the DOT syndicate, which has made it prohibitively expensive to commute via public transit (why in God's name is it cheaper to travel to Germany than take a train from Copenhagen to Odense?) or the bridge to Sweden we're still paying truly insane toll fees for despite having paid for its construction years ago.
- throwaway473825 6y ago
  There's an important distinction between the systems in Sweden and Denmark. In Denmark, you don't need to have a relationship with a private bank to get NemID. The government also provides it. In Sweden, you are absolutely reliant on private banks. This gives those select few banks a position of power which they can - and do - abuse.

msvan 6y ago

Since it's closed-source, privately owned and not based on any open standards, it doesn't work on Linux or any mobile device that isn't using Google Play Services or iOS. It's convenient, but it's an absolute travesty that we've left such an essential part of digital infrastructure to big banks.

StanislavPetrov 6y ago

As a US citizen, being able to go to various physical places without being forced to patronize an opaque, unaccountable corporate behemoth owned by a conglomeration of banks that centrally tracks everything I do, every penny I spend, and what and where I spend it on is liberating.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mongol 6y ago

Actually, we have several. BankID is the most well known, but there is also Freja eID.

kalleboo 6y ago
Right, the government just legislated standards for what can legally be considered e-ID, and its up to the market to implement it as they wish. Nothing is stopping anyone from developing and launching an open ID platform.

exoque 6y ago

> I also get all my bills digitally So do I. In Switzerland.

stjohnswarts 6y ago
All my bills are digital and paid digitally out of an account that I put money in every month digitally. In Texas.
- kiwijamo 6y ago
  Same here in New Zealand.

tchalla 6y ago

Are you willing to give up your privacy to corporates to be liberated online?

IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
most importantly, what about those that are not ? Is that decision made without their consent ?
- 2rsf 6y ago
  It's not mandatory, there are, less convenient, ways to work without it

throwaway473825 6y ago

I live in Sweden. My bank (Swedbank) recently closed my BankID and told me that I either have to buy more services from them or look for another bank if I want to have an BankID (which is required for vaccination). Yeah, it really works fine. Fortunately, it wasn't too difficult to find another bank that didn't want to blackmail me, but the system has such obvious flaws that it shouldn't exist. To make matters worse, the current chairman of Swedbank is Göran Persson, a previous prime minister. I fear that there is some ugly corruption involved here.

belorn 6y ago

> In Sweden we have a company running the ID system and that works fine. The company is coowned by all the large banks Try to have anything to do with the government without a bank account. The processes and system are today so integrated that many aspect of being a citizen are today impossible beyond giving the power of attorney to someone who do have a bank account and then let them do it. (Not hypothetical as this was the recommendation given by försäkringskassan). I would be much more happy with the system if the government operated a customer facing bank as a fallback, one which laws dictate so that all citizen critical functions are guarantied without a customer contract between a profit seeking company and a customer. It does not need to deal with loans, or give people interests, or handle stocks or any other aspects usually associated with banks. It just need to do basic banking for which everything else depend on in a cashless and internet based society. Until then, what we have is the merge of private banks, beholden to non-elected owners, and government. It is very hassle free as long one don't mind the soft version corporatocracy.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

> Being able to handle my life hassle free online instead of going to physical places (like post office, banks, gov office) is liberating. The US has an incoherent assemblage of spare parts for an ID system and it's been years since I've seen the inside of a physical bank. You have bank credentials and use them with with the bank. You have post office credentials and use them with the post office. This is far better from a security and privacy standpoint that any kind of centralized ID. If someone steals your post office credentials they can't drain your brokerage account, ransomware your employer's cloud services in your name and take out a home equity loan against your house and convert it into Bitcoin. Centralized identity is a bug, not a feature.

2rsf 6y ago
But aren't they all based on one central ID? how can the post office or bank know that you are who you claim to be without an official ID?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  The post office doesn't need to know "who you are" except insofar as you have a payment method that works which they can charge postage to. The payment processor, in turn, just needs to know that you're authorized to draw on that account, which they know because you have the credentials established when it was opened. Functionally none of this actually uses your name for anything useful. Even giving it to them at all is, at best, a password reset method, and there are a million other ways to do that which don't require a centralized ID.

soco 6y ago

The fact that is technically possible was never argued. Swiss voted against banks controlling their entire lives' data, not believing it was a condition to get their bills digitally (which by the way work fine in Switzerland as well).