7 ms·

America is not made for people who pee

44 points by mistersquid 6y ago

icey 6y ago
People have been talking about an uptick in human feces found on sidewalks and alleyways in San Francisco recently as though the pandemic is causing more people to choose to go on the street or as a signal of increased homelessness. I think what the article is talking about is a much bigger cause. If you're in SF, try finding a bathroom to use even if you do have money to spend somewhere. Everyone has closed their bathrooms because of COVID protocols -- I have no idea if this something mandated by law, or something that businesses are doing, but it's nearly impossible to find a place to relieve yourself unless you're near a park with a public restroom. I don't have a lot of confidence that the local government in SF is ready to solve this on their own, but just like homelessness, it's much larger than a one-city problem and hopefully more attention on things like this will help everyone chip away at the issues.
- sbilstein 6y ago
  edit: I lived in SF & Oakland from 2013-2019 and Manhattan from late 2019 - now. The feces problem in SF is exacerbated by opiates. Heavy opiate use causes extreme constipation and opiate withdrawal causes the opposite. Housing and drugs are the top of funnel problems in SF contributing to everything else. New York City seems to not have anywhere near the level of public feces as SOMA / Downtown SF even throughout the pandemic.
  - setpatchaddress 6y ago
    Yes. And just to be clear, this was a problem in SF well before the pandemic.
  - icey 6y ago
    It's not exactly like for like, but compare these maps of available public restrooms in SF and NYC: - NYC: http://m3.mappler.net/nyrestroom/ http://m3.mappler.net/nyrestroom/ - SF: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer?mid=1xRGER_GLPdRdOAT-RPvj1GWUqcw&ll=37.76364906889251%2C-122.44970315&z=13 https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer?mid=1xRGER_GLPdRdOA... No disagreement as to the opiate issues in SF exacerbating the problem, but it seems reasonable to think that anyone (drug problem or not) would prefer to use a bathroom than squat on a sidewalk.
    - sbilstein 6y ago
      Yea I wasn't saying it was the only cause but holy shit I did not know there were that many bathrooms in Manhattan =)
balozi 6y ago
Success of public restroom infrastructure hinges more on how people think of themselves and their fellow humans, and less about actual pee and poop needs. America lucks the requisite social contracts.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Or America lacks the requisite janitorial contracts. Can't UberCleans solve this?
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  Lots of places would like to have public restrooms but the people passing out in them leaving needles all over and wrecking them ruin it for everyone else.
  - bmn__ 6y ago
    That's another symptom of America's lack of the social contract. If the persons who are charged with governing had any semblance of respect for the human dignity, they not only would build public toilets, but also centres staffed with social workers where the addicted have a place away from the public to inject and where the syringes are safely deposed of. It's called harm prevention and this is cheaper (both in monetary and human capital) than just ignoring the problems.
byOf4 6y ago
IMO he nails it on the head with the Buchwald anecdote. America has binned the medieval Roman Catholic notion that we are moral agents, which gave rise to the enlightenment, for the older “church knows best” construct. The church being “free market fiscal economics” manipulated by elites who think they know best. Just like the kings, priests, and barons of old. If someone with wealth hasn’t decided you are “privy lege” given fiscal trade rules, you don’t get to piss.
- throwaway111190 6y ago
  > The church being “free market fiscal economics” manipulated by elites who think they know best This is so wildly fantastic given the size of modern US government and the size of the national debt. We're passing so-called stimulus/relief packages of unprecedented size, expanding the money supply, etc. The idea that "free market fiscal economics" weighs on US policy at any level is a complete farce. There's no evidence and it's a certainty that liberals and big-government types hold the most power by far in US government and this has been the case for decades. Limited government and free market ideology has a caucus of maybe 10 people in Congress. All significant legislation is voted firmly against their favor.
rtrdea 6y ago
I used to have a toilet finding app on my iPod touch when I wandered around Australia a decade or so ago. It was a life saver. The solution is to give phones with toilet apps to everyone
- bpanon 6y ago
  Hey George, the ocean called: it’s running out of shrimp!
sanp 6y ago
So, a cop was fired in Oklahoma for citing a 3-year old with a $2500 fine for public urination. Sounds kinda harsh given that you can't get cops fired even for killing unarmed law-abiding civilians. Wonder what happened there (did he piss off the wrong people?).
- david38 6y ago
  It’s because the target was a three year old. Also, your comparison is way off. Not all police departments are the same. Unarmed doesn’t mean “not a threat” or “can in no way be a threat”. I can simply approach you in an angry manner and be a threat. Does it justify death? No, but a three year old?
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    > Unarmed doesn’t mean “not a threat” How much of a threat are the "unarmed law-abiding civilians" in the comment you replied to?
  - Daho0n 6y ago
    An officer from a well functioning and well trained policeforce would not even shoot to kill a knife wielding attacker. They would at most first shoot a warning shot and then maybe a single shot in the leg if they couldn't stop him with pepperspray or a tazer. An unarmed civilian is most definitely not a threat in any way to a real cop (US police doesn't count as a real cop. They are an embarrassment to police everywhere.)
    - Bancakes 6y ago
      Warning shots, single shots to the leg, and all less lethal short of 40mm grenade to the head/neck has proven wildly inconsistent at stopping an attacker. Remember the Tueller drill, there is no time for reaction, only action - that means to shoot until the aggressor is incapacitated. This is the time proven way of preventing dead or injured police officers (and civilians!). It's just that police in Europe and Asia don't really face dangerous and determined criminals.
naebother 6y ago
All good points, but I don't understand the title.
- ksd482 6y ago
  “ But the United States is simply not made for people who pee.” That’s in the 4th or 5th paragraph. That’s the human anatomy the title is referring to.
  - zeroimpl 6y ago
    Shouldn’t the title of the submission match the title of the article? Anatomically correct suggests something very different.
    - dang 6y ago
      Yes, it should. The submitted title ('America Is Not Made for Anatomically Correct People') broke the site guidelines: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Perhaps the submitter thought the title was linkbait, but I don't see it that way and have reverted it now. Generally we try to avoid euphemisms and Bowdlerisms here. It's better to assume that readers are smart enough to handle things for themselves.
- Digit-Al 6y ago
  anatomically correct: having body parts like those of actual people. So they are basically saying that America is not made for people who have actual human bodies, that need to pee and poop.
  - bogwog 6y ago
    But a person could be "anatomically incorrect" due to an accident or birth defect, and they'd still need to pee and poop.
- mitchdoogle 6y ago
benjohnson 6y ago
I'd love to open up our bathroom to 99% of the public - most of them would leave the bathroom in better condition than they found it. It's the jerks that ruin the idea.
Zababa 6y ago
Wayback machine link: https://web.archive.org/web/20210306195504/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/opinion/sunday/public-toilets-united-states.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210306195504/https://www.nytim...
chr1 6y ago
There is a very simple explanation for this not mentioned in this article: well meaning people have pressured legislators to ban for-pay restrooms, and since not many people feel joy when maintaining a free public restroom, not many restroom remained operating. [1] https://fee.org/articles/why-is-there-a-shortage-in-public-restrooms/ https://fee.org/articles/why-is-there-a-shortage-in-public-r...
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Pay restrooms won't stop street defecation due to poverty.
MauroIksem 6y ago
I've traveled in europe, asia and africa and the americas and the US by far has the best public restroom infrastructure.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  Where did you travel in the US? If you went to San Francisco or New York, how did you manage your requirements for restroom infrastructure?
- akvadrako 6y ago
  I have traveled a lot and I agree completely. As an american I was raised to always expect public facilities but it's very rare.
  - Daho0n 6y ago
    I don't know where you have traveled but it is the norm to have free public bathrooms and bathrooms in pretty much all businesses open to the public everywhere in Europe I have visited and they were all free and clean.
- bradknowles 6y ago
  I’ve traveled extensively in the US since the 70s, and with my wife throughout Western Europe between 1999 and 2006, and back in the US since 2006. During that time, I found no such public restroom facilities in the US. Paid facilities at gas stations, fast food places, restaurants, and various other businesses, yes. But one way or the other, you always paid for those. I did see a little bit of public restroom facilities in Europe, and they were okay for what you paid for them. But the paid facilities, especially in France and Belgium near the highways, could be little more than holes in the ground with places to put your feet on the sides. We quickly learned to spot trustworthy businesses like McDonalds and other US companies that would have better paid facilities. Hotels, conference centers, and the like had better paid restroom facilities than any other places I’ve ever seen before or since, but even movie theaters had Madame Pissoir at the door who could be quite rude and offensive if you were in dire need and would be happy to pay once you were done, but you couldn’t wait. Even here in the US, we continued to carefully look for McDonalds or Starbucks as a sign that here would be good restroom facilities, and that we would be happy to purchase something there so that we could use their restrooms. At least they were never as rude and offensive as Madame Pissoir.
resonatevision 6y ago
To be fair, SF public parks almost all have very decent public bathrooms that are actually maintained. I have been impressed with the ones in GG, Dolores, Holly parks.
wombatmobile 6y ago
The availability of public restrooms in Japan makes travelling there so much easier and less stress. Not only is it possible to go to the toilet, it's a good experience because they keep them so clean. This sends a message that is bigger than just the restroom itself. It tells a tourist (or a resident) they are in a civilised place which acknowledges their humanity.
- tmm84 6y ago
  Not all the restrooms in here in Japan are squeaky clean. Some of the busy Tokyo train station ones are stinky and sticky from urine that splashed on the floor. I have seen some restrooms where the cleaning crew just comes in with a hose and a brush because there is so much urine on the floor. However, 7-11s and the like tend to have really clean restrooms because you're likely to buy something if you can use the restroom and not leave it in haste.
juancn 6y ago
The first time I went to the US (around the year 2000), I was surprised by how difficult it was to find a public restroom. Even malls used to have just a couple of restrooms near the food court. Also, the restrooms didn't match the expected number of people on the building. As if there's no building code in terms of a public place and number of restrooms that must be available. I was expecting something similar to an airport which is what most countries do in terms of density of public restrooms, but it was much less (I went to Texas, so other states might have been different)

44 points by mistersquid 6y ago

icey 6y ago

People have been talking about an uptick in human feces found on sidewalks and alleyways in San Francisco recently as though the pandemic is causing more people to choose to go on the street or as a signal of increased homelessness. I think what the article is talking about is a much bigger cause. If you're in SF, try finding a bathroom to use even if you do have money to spend somewhere. Everyone has closed their bathrooms because of COVID protocols -- I have no idea if this something mandated by law, or something that businesses are doing, but it's nearly impossible to find a place to relieve yourself unless you're near a park with a public restroom. I don't have a lot of confidence that the local government in SF is ready to solve this on their own, but just like homelessness, it's much larger than a one-city problem and hopefully more attention on things like this will help everyone chip away at the issues.

sbilstein 6y ago
edit: I lived in SF & Oakland from 2013-2019 and Manhattan from late 2019 - now. The feces problem in SF is exacerbated by opiates. Heavy opiate use causes extreme constipation and opiate withdrawal causes the opposite. Housing and drugs are the top of funnel problems in SF contributing to everything else. New York City seems to not have anywhere near the level of public feces as SOMA / Downtown SF even throughout the pandemic.
- setpatchaddress 6y ago
  Yes. And just to be clear, this was a problem in SF well before the pandemic.
- icey 6y ago
  It's not exactly like for like, but compare these maps of available public restrooms in SF and NYC: - NYC: http://m3.mappler.net/nyrestroom/ http://m3.mappler.net/nyrestroom/ - SF: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer?mid=1xRGER_GLPdRdOAT-RPvj1GWUqcw&ll=37.76364906889251%2C-122.44970315&z=13 https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer?mid=1xRGER_GLPdRdOA... No disagreement as to the opiate issues in SF exacerbating the problem, but it seems reasonable to think that anyone (drug problem or not) would prefer to use a bathroom than squat on a sidewalk.
  - sbilstein 6y ago
    Yea I wasn't saying it was the only cause but holy shit I did not know there were that many bathrooms in Manhattan =)

balozi 6y ago

Success of public restroom infrastructure hinges more on how people think of themselves and their fellow humans, and less about actual pee and poop needs. America lucks the requisite social contracts.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
alisonkisk 6y ago
Or America lacks the requisite janitorial contracts. Can't UberCleans solve this?
jimmaswell 6y ago
Lots of places would like to have public restrooms but the people passing out in them leaving needles all over and wrecking them ruin it for everyone else.
- bmn__ 6y ago
  That's another symptom of America's lack of the social contract. If the persons who are charged with governing had any semblance of respect for the human dignity, they not only would build public toilets, but also centres staffed with social workers where the addicted have a place away from the public to inject and where the syringes are safely deposed of. It's called harm prevention and this is cheaper (both in monetary and human capital) than just ignoring the problems.

byOf4 6y ago

IMO he nails it on the head with the Buchwald anecdote. America has binned the medieval Roman Catholic notion that we are moral agents, which gave rise to the enlightenment, for the older “church knows best” construct. The church being “free market fiscal economics” manipulated by elites who think they know best. Just like the kings, priests, and barons of old. If someone with wealth hasn’t decided you are “privy lege” given fiscal trade rules, you don’t get to piss.

throwaway111190 6y ago
> The church being “free market fiscal economics” manipulated by elites who think they know best This is so wildly fantastic given the size of modern US government and the size of the national debt. We're passing so-called stimulus/relief packages of unprecedented size, expanding the money supply, etc. The idea that "free market fiscal economics" weighs on US policy at any level is a complete farce. There's no evidence and it's a certainty that liberals and big-government types hold the most power by far in US government and this has been the case for decades. Limited government and free market ideology has a caucus of maybe 10 people in Congress. All significant legislation is voted firmly against their favor.

rtrdea 6y ago

I used to have a toilet finding app on my iPod touch when I wandered around Australia a decade or so ago. It was a life saver. The solution is to give phones with toilet apps to everyone

bpanon 6y ago
Hey George, the ocean called: it’s running out of shrimp!

sanp 6y ago

So, a cop was fired in Oklahoma for citing a 3-year old with a $2500 fine for public urination. Sounds kinda harsh given that you can't get cops fired even for killing unarmed law-abiding civilians. Wonder what happened there (did he piss off the wrong people?).

david38 6y ago
It’s because the target was a three year old. Also, your comparison is way off. Not all police departments are the same. Unarmed doesn’t mean “not a threat” or “can in no way be a threat”. I can simply approach you in an angry manner and be a threat. Does it justify death? No, but a three year old?
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  > Unarmed doesn’t mean “not a threat” How much of a threat are the "unarmed law-abiding civilians" in the comment you replied to?
- Daho0n 6y ago
  An officer from a well functioning and well trained policeforce would not even shoot to kill a knife wielding attacker. They would at most first shoot a warning shot and then maybe a single shot in the leg if they couldn't stop him with pepperspray or a tazer. An unarmed civilian is most definitely not a threat in any way to a real cop (US police doesn't count as a real cop. They are an embarrassment to police everywhere.)
  - Bancakes 6y ago
    Warning shots, single shots to the leg, and all less lethal short of 40mm grenade to the head/neck has proven wildly inconsistent at stopping an attacker. Remember the Tueller drill, there is no time for reaction, only action - that means to shoot until the aggressor is incapacitated. This is the time proven way of preventing dead or injured police officers (and civilians!). It's just that police in Europe and Asia don't really face dangerous and determined criminals.

naebother 6y ago

All good points, but I don't understand the title.

ksd482 6y ago
“ But the United States is simply not made for people who pee.” That’s in the 4th or 5th paragraph. That’s the human anatomy the title is referring to.
- zeroimpl 6y ago
  Shouldn’t the title of the submission match the title of the article? Anatomically correct suggests something very different.
  - dang 6y ago
    Yes, it should. The submitted title ('America Is Not Made for Anatomically Correct People') broke the site guidelines: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Perhaps the submitter thought the title was linkbait, but I don't see it that way and have reverted it now. Generally we try to avoid euphemisms and Bowdlerisms here. It's better to assume that readers are smart enough to handle things for themselves.
Digit-Al 6y ago
anatomically correct: having body parts like those of actual people. So they are basically saying that America is not made for people who have actual human bodies, that need to pee and poop.
- bogwog 6y ago
  But a person could be "anatomically incorrect" due to an accident or birth defect, and they'd still need to pee and poop.
mitchdoogle 6y ago

benjohnson 6y ago

I'd love to open up our bathroom to 99% of the public - most of them would leave the bathroom in better condition than they found it. It's the jerks that ruin the idea.

Zababa 6y ago

Wayback machine link: https://web.archive.org/web/20210306195504/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/opinion/sunday/public-toilets-united-states.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210306195504/https://www.nytim...

chr1 6y ago

There is a very simple explanation for this not mentioned in this article: well meaning people have pressured legislators to ban for-pay restrooms, and since not many people feel joy when maintaining a free public restroom, not many restroom remained operating. [1] https://fee.org/articles/why-is-there-a-shortage-in-public-restrooms/ https://fee.org/articles/why-is-there-a-shortage-in-public-r...

alisonkisk 6y ago
Pay restrooms won't stop street defecation due to poverty.

MauroIksem 6y ago

I've traveled in europe, asia and africa and the americas and the US by far has the best public restroom infrastructure.

wombatmobile 6y ago
Where did you travel in the US? If you went to San Francisco or New York, how did you manage your requirements for restroom infrastructure?
akvadrako 6y ago
I have traveled a lot and I agree completely. As an american I was raised to always expect public facilities but it's very rare.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  I don't know where you have traveled but it is the norm to have free public bathrooms and bathrooms in pretty much all businesses open to the public everywhere in Europe I have visited and they were all free and clean.
bradknowles 6y ago
I’ve traveled extensively in the US since the 70s, and with my wife throughout Western Europe between 1999 and 2006, and back in the US since 2006. During that time, I found no such public restroom facilities in the US. Paid facilities at gas stations, fast food places, restaurants, and various other businesses, yes. But one way or the other, you always paid for those. I did see a little bit of public restroom facilities in Europe, and they were okay for what you paid for them. But the paid facilities, especially in France and Belgium near the highways, could be little more than holes in the ground with places to put your feet on the sides. We quickly learned to spot trustworthy businesses like McDonalds and other US companies that would have better paid facilities. Hotels, conference centers, and the like had better paid restroom facilities than any other places I’ve ever seen before or since, but even movie theaters had Madame Pissoir at the door who could be quite rude and offensive if you were in dire need and would be happy to pay once you were done, but you couldn’t wait. Even here in the US, we continued to carefully look for McDonalds or Starbucks as a sign that here would be good restroom facilities, and that we would be happy to purchase something there so that we could use their restrooms. At least they were never as rude and offensive as Madame Pissoir.

resonatevision 6y ago

To be fair, SF public parks almost all have very decent public bathrooms that are actually maintained. I have been impressed with the ones in GG, Dolores, Holly parks.

wombatmobile 6y ago

The availability of public restrooms in Japan makes travelling there so much easier and less stress. Not only is it possible to go to the toilet, it's a good experience because they keep them so clean. This sends a message that is bigger than just the restroom itself. It tells a tourist (or a resident) they are in a civilised place which acknowledges their humanity.

tmm84 6y ago
Not all the restrooms in here in Japan are squeaky clean. Some of the busy Tokyo train station ones are stinky and sticky from urine that splashed on the floor. I have seen some restrooms where the cleaning crew just comes in with a hose and a brush because there is so much urine on the floor. However, 7-11s and the like tend to have really clean restrooms because you're likely to buy something if you can use the restroom and not leave it in haste.

juancn 6y ago

The first time I went to the US (around the year 2000), I was surprised by how difficult it was to find a public restroom. Even malls used to have just a couple of restrooms near the food court. Also, the restrooms didn't match the expected number of people on the building. As if there's no building code in terms of a public place and number of restrooms that must be available. I was expecting something similar to an airport which is what most countries do in terms of density of public restrooms, but it was much less (I went to Texas, so other states might have been different)