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Personally, I am of the opinion that individuals should be able to use electricity however they choose, provided they pay a market rate for it. Interesting to s

Personally, I am of the opinion that individuals should be able to use electricity however they choose, provided they pay a market rate for it. Interesting to see HN praising the CCP's policies in this regard.

blululu 6y ago
Market rates for electricity do not exist in a country where the power grid is controlled by communists. Given that most countries subsidize electricity consumption the same basic issue applies. Looking beyond naive libertarianism, there is the bigger question of waste and whether people are entitled to consume a resource regardless of the application. Historically efficiency was seen as a virtue, but modern attitudes are more open to waste. It’s a fair question to ask whether this is an aberration.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  >Market rates for electricity do not exist in a country where the power grid is controlled by communists. Given that most countries subsidize electricity consumption the same basic issue applies. Yes, that's a problem in my view. Observing that it is the status quo doesn't rationalize it or further prohibitions to defend price controls. I'm not sure if you would regard it as naive, but price controls are widely regarded as inefficient distortions of a market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_controls#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_controls#Criticism
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    I live in Québec. We have state run electricty, which turns a profit and isn't subsidized. It's by far the cheapest in North America, and the essentially the cheapest unsubsidized energy in the world. The grid is also 99.9% renewable (everywhere except for some islands) So the idea that price controls and nationalization somehow causes inefficiency in this case is just a tale economists tell themselves. In the real world, all of the most successful energy grids use those tools. In other words, you're arguing against reality.
    - aww_dang 6y ago
      If Quebec is running a profitable business, there's no argument in what I wrote? The most I could say is that there may be unseen costs of nationalization. I.e. it could be cheaper still if privatized, but that is further afield from the discussion. In HN parlance I suppose I could demand that you provide evidence and sources proving the same power stations wouldn't operate more efficiently under private ownership, but I don't think that would be fair or friendly.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        There is no market. It has a monopoly, and there are things you aren't allowed to do with the energy. It's not a business, either.
        aww_dang 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec#Quebec_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec#Quebec_marke...
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        There is no Quebec market for energy. What you're reading is someone trying to fit the style distinction local market/export market. But Hydro Quebec has a total monopoly and zero competition in Quebec, by law. It's not a market.
      - 8note 6y ago
        Profitable for the province is different from profitable for a business. Even if hydro itself isn't making more revenue than its direct costs, if it increases the tax revenues for the government by better uses of the electricity, the government is still making a profit There are unseen benefits to nationalization too, not just costs
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Replying due to edit : you can claim that a free market could be cheaper. But there are free energy markets right next to Quebec, and costs are around twice as high, so you are arguing against reality.
sudosysgen 6y ago
There is no market rate for electricity in any reasonable country. Electric generation is one of these things the free market doesn't do well, so the vast majority of electricity markets are either completely state operated (as in Canada, much of Europe, China, etc...), or highly subsidized. The first is way more efficient and allows for much lower electricity rates, and the second is the only way to get the economics right to allow for growth. That comes inevitably with regulatory restrictions on what you can do and how you can do it. Forbidding people using coal power to mine bitcoin is more than reasonable and indeed typical as far as energy use regulations go.
8note 6y ago
They should be paying me for the increased carbon dioxide they're putting in my air though

blululu 6y ago

Market rates for electricity do not exist in a country where the power grid is controlled by communists. Given that most countries subsidize electricity consumption the same basic issue applies. Looking beyond naive libertarianism, there is the bigger question of waste and whether people are entitled to consume a resource regardless of the application. Historically efficiency was seen as a virtue, but modern attitudes are more open to waste. It’s a fair question to ask whether this is an aberration.

aww_dang 6y ago
>Market rates for electricity do not exist in a country where the power grid is controlled by communists. Given that most countries subsidize electricity consumption the same basic issue applies. Yes, that's a problem in my view. Observing that it is the status quo doesn't rationalize it or further prohibitions to defend price controls. I'm not sure if you would regard it as naive, but price controls are widely regarded as inefficient distortions of a market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_controls#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_controls#Criticism
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  I live in Québec. We have state run electricty, which turns a profit and isn't subsidized. It's by far the cheapest in North America, and the essentially the cheapest unsubsidized energy in the world. The grid is also 99.9% renewable (everywhere except for some islands) So the idea that price controls and nationalization somehow causes inefficiency in this case is just a tale economists tell themselves. In the real world, all of the most successful energy grids use those tools. In other words, you're arguing against reality.
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    If Quebec is running a profitable business, there's no argument in what I wrote? The most I could say is that there may be unseen costs of nationalization. I.e. it could be cheaper still if privatized, but that is further afield from the discussion. In HN parlance I suppose I could demand that you provide evidence and sources proving the same power stations wouldn't operate more efficiently under private ownership, but I don't think that would be fair or friendly.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      There is no market. It has a monopoly, and there are things you aren't allowed to do with the energy. It's not a business, either.
      - aww_dang 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec#Quebec_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec#Quebec_marke...
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        There is no Quebec market for energy. What you're reading is someone trying to fit the style distinction local market/export market. But Hydro Quebec has a total monopoly and zero competition in Quebec, by law. It's not a market.
    - 8note 6y ago
      Profitable for the province is different from profitable for a business. Even if hydro itself isn't making more revenue than its direct costs, if it increases the tax revenues for the government by better uses of the electricity, the government is still making a profit There are unseen benefits to nationalization too, not just costs
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Replying due to edit : you can claim that a free market could be cheaper. But there are free energy markets right next to Quebec, and costs are around twice as high, so you are arguing against reality.

sudosysgen 6y ago

There is no market rate for electricity in any reasonable country. Electric generation is one of these things the free market doesn't do well, so the vast majority of electricity markets are either completely state operated (as in Canada, much of Europe, China, etc...), or highly subsidized. The first is way more efficient and allows for much lower electricity rates, and the second is the only way to get the economics right to allow for growth. That comes inevitably with regulatory restrictions on what you can do and how you can do it. Forbidding people using coal power to mine bitcoin is more than reasonable and indeed typical as far as energy use regulations go.

8note 6y ago

They should be paying me for the increased carbon dioxide they're putting in my air though