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Yes, Big Topic! (showing how there are no easy solutions) The Democracy/Tyranny/Unanimity issue has problems. Any decision can be expressed as its reverse: [F

by toss1 6y ago

Yes, Big Topic! (showing how there are no easy solutions) The Democracy/Tyranny/Unanimity issue has problems. Any decision can be expressed as its reverse: [Freedom From] or [Freedom To]. Requiring unanimity allows any individual to exert their will against the remaining 99.9xx% of the people. I want [Freedom From triplexes and all their knock-on effects], you want [Freedom To build triplexes]. If 99% of the ppl agree with your or me, the last one of us standing imposes our decision on the rest. Not even solvable with defaults. The current default here is [Freedom From development], so we should require 100% unanimity to change it? Literal generations have worked with the same set of rules, and continually agreed, voted and paid large sums to support them, so it's kind of specious to argue that it is not a legit default. Moreover, just changing the rules is like an unfunded mandate - it imposes huge costs on existing people who have already invested massive amounts in the previously defined structure. This applies to towns that do not have centralized services (water, sewer, etc.) as well as those that do - changing the loads by half an order of magnitude is not free. If you want to change it, bring funding too. I agree with your point about adding to commutes. MIT traffic studies in our area show how the commute traffic suddenly gelled and nearly doubled commute times with just a few hundred cars added from a couple of towns. Changing all of the zoning in the sub/exurbs will only create an absolutely unworkable mess for everyone, including the newcomers who thought they were getting X, but actually will just get Silicon-Valley-style traffic. I could probably agree that some kind of larger scale planning is appropriate once the density of employers and people exceeds certain thresholds. E.g., when it is already more than 10,000 residents per square mile, and some number of jobs per square mile, then there should be a planned, and probably large scaling up in allowable density, with design for intra-city transport, lower traffic, etc.. BUT, I still question balancing my/our ability/right to impose that vs the fact that this involves problems that The Market is not good at solving well.

mikem170 6y ago
Good stuff. Had to get some of the bickering out of the way first, I guess :-) I agree about the money for services, practicalities need to be respected. I assume doing better in cities could lighten the load in other places, and that is where we can help the most people the fastest. On the Democracy/Tyranny/Unanimity issue... A lot of regulation seems to be made for the "average person", and it can be difficult if you don't fit in that mold. From a democracy perspective I'd be happy if there were more (metaphorical) space for people who want to try something different, not just in the (disappearing?) unregulated boonies. I mentioned the Japanese federal zoning, but to be honest that does conflict with my tendency towards preferring more local control for most things, only passing control to higher authorities when all the localities agree. Tilting at windmills perhaps. But as a counterpoint I give you Switzerland! (I'm learning more about their more direct/local democracy, and it is interesting) I still think that negotiating consensus should be the baseline goal in a democracy, trying to understand and accommodate those who strongly object if within the realm of possibility. I really want what I want, and I also want you to have what you really want. Back to zoning... You threw out a number... I'm not sure if 99% approach zoning issues in the same way you would. You don't sound like a renter, or someone who moves frequently, or someone struggling to pay bills, or stuck with a bad landlord. Or someone having to deal with a corporate apartment complex putting the squeeze on them with valet trash charges and expensive bundled cable, or an unethical corpation falsely claiming damages against your security deposit. Or a 30 something millenial who doesn't fit the corporate mold and is worried to death about affording a place to live, a family, retirement, and loosing the rat race. Or someone who can only afford to live in a camper. Or someone who has to move back in with the kids to afford living on their social security check. Or one of those people outside Houston or Atlanta with a two hour commute. Or someone who doesn't have a car. Or someone down on their luck and would like a secure place to camp where they can get to a supermarket and a bus stop to get to work, and maybe a port-a-pottie, Or someone who lost their life savings all tied up in their house in 2009. or a multigenerational family. Coporations and rich developers can get variances for their profit optimized investments, but the little guy not easily. Well, you get the idea. I apologize, but I get worked up about all of that :-) I don't know what the vote would be if more options were given to people. But there are a lot of people in a lot of places who are not happy with the way things are. Current zoning sometimes seems like a bad deal from some of these other perspectives, and I agree. I'm still learning about all this stuff. Like I mentioned before, I am concerned about the financial incentives behind the status quo, and I'm also concerned about the impact to our culture. So many working families struggling even with two incomes, neighborhoods and neighbors replaced by commutes and strangers. The world has been changing fast. My grandfather was a steel worker, didn't finish high school, and owned an extra cottage near the lake and a retirement/rental in Florida. Zoning has such a huge impact on affordable housing (and transportation costs) for so many people. I assume that financiers and corporations aren't helping. I imagine the basic supply and demand equation will be quite different in another decade or two when the demographically significant boomer generation are dying in large numbers. I think that we're lucky exception amongst developed countries to have a large millennial generation. The assumption is that birth rates will stay low. Maybe much of this will be a moot point.
- toss1 6y ago
  yup, well it is a big issue, and as usual, the (apparently) easy and obvious solutions don't work out so well. I totally sympathize with all of those worrisome situations. I see a much better solution would be a proper minimum wage. Seriously, for anyone who has a business and needs to pay anyone else, if they can't make a profit paying a wage such that a full-time job in that locale is above the poverty line and affording decent housing, then they do not have a business. What they have is organized theft. They are either stealing their employee's lives (poverty shortens life), or stealing from the govt (for their extra support checks). Having a proper wage base would go far in allowing people to afford housing. Yes, it would push the price up, allow for more creation, etc. I do think you have a key point there about the issues of price and commuting, and in was echoed in your point about the ppl looking for a place to camp. Making more housing available for poor people who cannot also afford the transportation to do long commutes every day does no one any good, especially when most cities already have massive transport problems. We need not just random housing, but housing near the jobs...

by toss1 6y ago

mikem170 6y ago

Good stuff. Had to get some of the bickering out of the way first, I guess :-) I agree about the money for services, practicalities need to be respected. I assume doing better in cities could lighten the load in other places, and that is where we can help the most people the fastest. On the Democracy/Tyranny/Unanimity issue... A lot of regulation seems to be made for the "average person", and it can be difficult if you don't fit in that mold. From a democracy perspective I'd be happy if there were more (metaphorical) space for people who want to try something different, not just in the (disappearing?) unregulated boonies. I mentioned the Japanese federal zoning, but to be honest that does conflict with my tendency towards preferring more local control for most things, only passing control to higher authorities when all the localities agree. Tilting at windmills perhaps. But as a counterpoint I give you Switzerland! (I'm learning more about their more direct/local democracy, and it is interesting) I still think that negotiating consensus should be the baseline goal in a democracy, trying to understand and accommodate those who strongly object if within the realm of possibility. I really want what I want, and I also want you to have what you really want. Back to zoning... You threw out a number... I'm not sure if 99% approach zoning issues in the same way you would. You don't sound like a renter, or someone who moves frequently, or someone struggling to pay bills, or stuck with a bad landlord. Or someone having to deal with a corporate apartment complex putting the squeeze on them with valet trash charges and expensive bundled cable, or an unethical corpation falsely claiming damages against your security deposit. Or a 30 something millenial who doesn't fit the corporate mold and is worried to death about affording a place to live, a family, retirement, and loosing the rat race. Or someone who can only afford to live in a camper. Or someone who has to move back in with the kids to afford living on their social security check. Or one of those people outside Houston or Atlanta with a two hour commute. Or someone who doesn't have a car. Or someone down on their luck and would like a secure place to camp where they can get to a supermarket and a bus stop to get to work, and maybe a port-a-pottie, Or someone who lost their life savings all tied up in their house in 2009. or a multigenerational family. Coporations and rich developers can get variances for their profit optimized investments, but the little guy not easily. Well, you get the idea. I apologize, but I get worked up about all of that :-) I don't know what the vote would be if more options were given to people. But there are a lot of people in a lot of places who are not happy with the way things are. Current zoning sometimes seems like a bad deal from some of these other perspectives, and I agree. I'm still learning about all this stuff. Like I mentioned before, I am concerned about the financial incentives behind the status quo, and I'm also concerned about the impact to our culture. So many working families struggling even with two incomes, neighborhoods and neighbors replaced by commutes and strangers. The world has been changing fast. My grandfather was a steel worker, didn't finish high school, and owned an extra cottage near the lake and a retirement/rental in Florida. Zoning has such a huge impact on affordable housing (and transportation costs) for so many people. I assume that financiers and corporations aren't helping. I imagine the basic supply and demand equation will be quite different in another decade or two when the demographically significant boomer generation are dying in large numbers. I think that we're lucky exception amongst developed countries to have a large millennial generation. The assumption is that birth rates will stay low. Maybe much of this will be a moot point.

toss1 6y ago
yup, well it is a big issue, and as usual, the (apparently) easy and obvious solutions don't work out so well. I totally sympathize with all of those worrisome situations. I see a much better solution would be a proper minimum wage. Seriously, for anyone who has a business and needs to pay anyone else, if they can't make a profit paying a wage such that a full-time job in that locale is above the poverty line and affording decent housing, then they do not have a business. What they have is organized theft. They are either stealing their employee's lives (poverty shortens life), or stealing from the govt (for their extra support checks). Having a proper wage base would go far in allowing people to afford housing. Yes, it would push the price up, allow for more creation, etc. I do think you have a key point there about the issues of price and commuting, and in was echoed in your point about the ppl looking for a place to camp. Making more housing available for poor people who cannot also afford the transportation to do long commutes every day does no one any good, especially when most cities already have massive transport problems. We need not just random housing, but housing near the jobs...