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I get the sense that the people who self reported as being good persuasive bullshitters probably aren’t fooling people to the extent they think they are. They’

I get the sense that the people who self reported as being good persuasive bullshitters probably aren’t fooling people to the extent they think they are. They’re just not aware of how transparent they are. And if those same people are also susceptible to fake news and pseudoscience, it kind of adds up to them just not being very smart. Or perhaps, it adds up to them not being the kind of people who always take two ideas they have in their heads and test them to see if they are consistent with each other. After all, it takes work to try to figure out if you’re actually seeing the truth. And it takes work to realize you’re wrong about something and to update your mental model of the world. Maybe accepting/sowing bullshit is just easier. If I’m trying to convince someone they’re wrong about something, the way I try to do it is to find a contradiction in their position. I point out two things they believe that can’t both be true at the same time and then I let them trace out the consequences on their own. But evidently for high bullshit individuals, that might not work, since they might not see self-contradictory ideas as a problem. How would you convince those people of anything? I’m not sure.

Bakary 6y ago
>They’re just not aware of how transparent they are. Conversely, we might not actually be aware of the true masters at work precisely because of their skill and the fact that we can catch the novices >How would you convince those people of anything? I’m not sure. The same way they convince their marks: create the impression of yourself as a strong and confident leader and they will form an internal story as to why it makes sense to follow and believe what you say
- fallingfrog 6y ago
  Oh how interesting! I’m trying to figure out how susceptible I am to manipulation by a “strong and confident leader”. My immediate reaction is that I instantly dislike the kind of people you’re talking about- I can think of lots times when a tall handsome person with a self satisfied smirk has spoken in a loud voice and I hated them immediately. Once I was in one of those corporate cheerleading sessions in a big room and the CEO of the company walks in- tall guy, immaculately dressed. Beautiful skin. Just flew over from Europe. He says how “blown away by the enthusiasm” he is. Shows a video of himself walking among the people, talking to lowly cashiers and baggage clerks. I could barely restrain myself from throwing a chair at him. I sometimes regret that I didn’t, the loss of my job might have been worth it to get a shot in at that rotten bastard. I thought, of course they acted enthusiastic around you, they felt compelled to. I feel the same way about the Cuomos and Trumps of the world. I’ve had the same reaction to sales and marketing pitches. I instinctively hate them on a deep, subconscious level, and that’s not too strong a word. I suppose this must be an atypical reaction though? I can’t imagine reacting any other way. It’s not just that I think those kinds of figures are not good people; they activate my fight or flight response. They feel like a threat. Are there really people out there who like those kind of people? I just find that idea so baffling. But yet I do see all sorts of people who appear to do just that. I don’t understand it.
  - Bakary 6y ago
    To clarify, the low-skill "persuasive bullshit" artists (as categorized in the article in opposition to the evasive type) you mentioned respond well to that sort of thing, and so do the various members of the public that they are able to convince. I happen to share your dislike of that sort of thing... but in works in various contexts. And that dislike we share is not atypical, simply less common. What I mean is that they are not the only type of bullshitter. It's seductive to think that we can catch all of them like pokemon because we can identify the lowest hanging fruit. Anecdotally, I have met some people I would describe as true masters of the craft and it's an experience that completely changed the way I see that sort of thing. It ha shaken my confidence in my own observational skills.
    - fallingfrog 6y ago
      I see what you’re saying, I could certainly be overconfident in my own ability to spot masters of the craft, as you put it.

Bakary 6y ago

>They’re just not aware of how transparent they are. Conversely, we might not actually be aware of the true masters at work precisely because of their skill and the fact that we can catch the novices >How would you convince those people of anything? I’m not sure. The same way they convince their marks: create the impression of yourself as a strong and confident leader and they will form an internal story as to why it makes sense to follow and believe what you say

fallingfrog 6y ago
Oh how interesting! I’m trying to figure out how susceptible I am to manipulation by a “strong and confident leader”. My immediate reaction is that I instantly dislike the kind of people you’re talking about- I can think of lots times when a tall handsome person with a self satisfied smirk has spoken in a loud voice and I hated them immediately. Once I was in one of those corporate cheerleading sessions in a big room and the CEO of the company walks in- tall guy, immaculately dressed. Beautiful skin. Just flew over from Europe. He says how “blown away by the enthusiasm” he is. Shows a video of himself walking among the people, talking to lowly cashiers and baggage clerks. I could barely restrain myself from throwing a chair at him. I sometimes regret that I didn’t, the loss of my job might have been worth it to get a shot in at that rotten bastard. I thought, of course they acted enthusiastic around you, they felt compelled to. I feel the same way about the Cuomos and Trumps of the world. I’ve had the same reaction to sales and marketing pitches. I instinctively hate them on a deep, subconscious level, and that’s not too strong a word. I suppose this must be an atypical reaction though? I can’t imagine reacting any other way. It’s not just that I think those kinds of figures are not good people; they activate my fight or flight response. They feel like a threat. Are there really people out there who like those kind of people? I just find that idea so baffling. But yet I do see all sorts of people who appear to do just that. I don’t understand it.
- Bakary 6y ago
  To clarify, the low-skill "persuasive bullshit" artists (as categorized in the article in opposition to the evasive type) you mentioned respond well to that sort of thing, and so do the various members of the public that they are able to convince. I happen to share your dislike of that sort of thing... but in works in various contexts. And that dislike we share is not atypical, simply less common. What I mean is that they are not the only type of bullshitter. It's seductive to think that we can catch all of them like pokemon because we can identify the lowest hanging fruit. Anecdotally, I have met some people I would describe as true masters of the craft and it's an experience that completely changed the way I see that sort of thing. It ha shaken my confidence in my own observational skills.
  - fallingfrog 6y ago
    I see what you’re saying, I could certainly be overconfident in my own ability to spot masters of the craft, as you put it.