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Every anti-vaxxer I came across had a history involving their kids reaction to vaccines. You may call them bullshitters all you want, but they are incredibly mo

Every anti-vaxxer I came across had a history involving their kids reaction to vaccines. You may call them bullshitters all you want, but they are incredibly more motivated than you given above mentioned history.

eloisius 6y ago
Every one of them had a history of their kids having an adverse reaction to vaccines, you mean? That's quite a different circle than I've swam in. The anti-vaxxers I've known all adopt their beliefs based on some quasi-religious, libertarian, self-sufficiency ideology and indeed have withheld vaccines from their children. Whenever I argued with them they would invariably claim to be familiar with hundred of peer-reviewed papers demonstrating the dangers. When pressed on the issue, one of them finally did dig up this trove of papers for me. Because I'm an idiot, I actually did carefully review and refute them, so I can say from personal experience that the "orders of magnitude" adage is pretty true. Of course, after admitting that maybe these papers weren't the best materials to prove his point, he decided to pivot to another website that would surely contain all the "proof" I need. There is no arguing. They have a heap of bullshit and don't intend to make their beliefs based on critical analysis. If you're curious about how I wasted several evenings reading anti-vax papers you can read my analysis here [1]. It's almost invariably about a disproven link between thimerosal and autism spectrum disorder or random non-scientists hucksters trying to sell crystal healing powers or some horse shit. [1]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19IFB_2dzq6Gb5z6igjsIEFMhYqYpNylbZ756QMmDSuw/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/document/d/19IFB_2dzq6Gb5z6igjsIEFMh...
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  I did not say everyone of them, I said everyone that I personally came across. I do not swim in antivaxxers. Are we testing our bs powers?
  - eloisius 6y ago
    When I said "every one of _them_" I was referring to every one of them that you have met. Not implying that you meant all of them in existence. I'm surprised by your experience, because growing up in an Evangelical community in the south anti-vaxxers were a dime a dozen, but I've never met anyone whose children were harmed by vaccines.
    - jacobr1 6y ago
      Possible a timing/age issue. When I first encountered the antivaxers, it was in the late 90s with parents of children on the autistic spectrum grasping at whatever cause they could. Now it is pretty much just the kind of people that are attracted to ideas like climate skepticism or crystal healing. And they all have a bogeyman like evil corporations or the government.
      - AzzieElbab 6y ago
        That is exactly it.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      Oh interesting. I don’t know many religious people. I grew up in the USSR.
      - varjag 6y ago
        Much of the former USSR is the domain of superstitious and religious. Antivaxx is also mainstream there.
        AzzieElbab 6y ago
        Maybe, but back then we never even thought about it. Some shots we have taken actually leave scars.
- dennis_jeeves 6y ago
  eloisius, I applaud you for your efforts. You certainly appear to have done it sincerely. ( I had a cursory glance at the doc you put) But there is a fundamental problem, you are looking at numbers gleaned from 'studies' and IMHO mostly they revel nothing unless the study was done carefully, intelligently and with integrity. All these traits are missing at large in the scientific community. A broken clock is correct twice a day. Also factor in politics, something which I did not early on, most of us with a technical bent of mind are naively un-aware of this. Regarding autism + vaccines, I never looked into it. But I have looked at (and mostly listened to people who I think are credible have dug up numbers from the CDC website) and my conclusion is that for most part they are generally useless, perhaps 1 or 2 vaccines out of the 30 or so are truly effective. There are also instances of clear harm where populations what were vaccinated fell ill and the ones that we not vaccinated did not fall ill. Finally anecdotally, the people who most certainly get the flu are the ones that were vaccinated. Ofcourse people will dismiss that by saying anecdotes are not data. Where ever a vaccine did appear to have succeeded, there were other factors in play. A clear case of (well-intentioned) people who drink their own kool-aid believe that their efforts are paid off.
  - eloisius 6y ago
    I reread what you posted a couple of times, and I still have no idea what your point is. Vaccines are or are not harmful? If they are harmful, would you assert any specific claims and provide evidence please?
    - dennis_jeeves 6y ago
      Well, the burden is proof is on the vaccine to show that is near completely safe and that it is clearly providing a benefit, isn't it? ( not the other way round where the burden of proof is put on someone to prove that it not harmful). The point that I'm trying to make is this - to the extent I have looked I see no clear benefit, and in some cases there appears to be a clear harm. So why bother taking it? >Vaccines are or are not harmful? My guess - only one 1 or 2 are effective, rest are either useless or harmful. These are ball park figures based on fair amount of reading/listening, I could be wrong. But it begs the question, why should it be so hard to see clear benefits? One has only so much time to investigate these things, I did it years back and have moved on. My default today is to mistrust anything that medicine has to offer. ( it used to be the other way round) Also don't forget to look at the drugs Thalidomide and Vioxx - should give you a glimpse of the how murky the industry is. These are IMO not isolated incidents. That should at least tip you off in the right direction. Last, but not the least - if a vaccine has clear benefits ( based on broader set of parameters that I would consider) , I would take it, who in their right mind does not want to protect their health?
- cgriswald 6y ago
  What is the libertarian argument against vaccination?
  - andrewflnr 6y ago
    That you should not be legally required to vaccinate. I suspect this to be a smokescreen for the usual nonsense but, apropos of OP, they may believe it's their real reason.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

eloisius 6y ago

Every one of them had a history of their kids having an adverse reaction to vaccines, you mean? That's quite a different circle than I've swam in. The anti-vaxxers I've known all adopt their beliefs based on some quasi-religious, libertarian, self-sufficiency ideology and indeed have withheld vaccines from their children. Whenever I argued with them they would invariably claim to be familiar with hundred of peer-reviewed papers demonstrating the dangers. When pressed on the issue, one of them finally did dig up this trove of papers for me. Because I'm an idiot, I actually did carefully review and refute them, so I can say from personal experience that the "orders of magnitude" adage is pretty true. Of course, after admitting that maybe these papers weren't the best materials to prove his point, he decided to pivot to another website that would surely contain all the "proof" I need. There is no arguing. They have a heap of bullshit and don't intend to make their beliefs based on critical analysis. If you're curious about how I wasted several evenings reading anti-vax papers you can read my analysis here [1]. It's almost invariably about a disproven link between thimerosal and autism spectrum disorder or random non-scientists hucksters trying to sell crystal healing powers or some horse shit. [1]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/19IFB_2dzq6Gb5z6igjsIEFMhYqYpNylbZ756QMmDSuw/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/document/d/19IFB_2dzq6Gb5z6igjsIEFMh...

AzzieElbab 6y ago
I did not say everyone of them, I said everyone that I personally came across. I do not swim in antivaxxers. Are we testing our bs powers?
- eloisius 6y ago
  When I said "every one of _them_" I was referring to every one of them that you have met. Not implying that you meant all of them in existence. I'm surprised by your experience, because growing up in an Evangelical community in the south anti-vaxxers were a dime a dozen, but I've never met anyone whose children were harmed by vaccines.
  - jacobr1 6y ago
    Possible a timing/age issue. When I first encountered the antivaxers, it was in the late 90s with parents of children on the autistic spectrum grasping at whatever cause they could. Now it is pretty much just the kind of people that are attracted to ideas like climate skepticism or crystal healing. And they all have a bogeyman like evil corporations or the government.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      That is exactly it.
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    Oh interesting. I don’t know many religious people. I grew up in the USSR.
    - varjag 6y ago
      Much of the former USSR is the domain of superstitious and religious. Antivaxx is also mainstream there.
      - AzzieElbab 6y ago
        Maybe, but back then we never even thought about it. Some shots we have taken actually leave scars.
dennis_jeeves 6y ago
eloisius, I applaud you for your efforts. You certainly appear to have done it sincerely. ( I had a cursory glance at the doc you put) But there is a fundamental problem, you are looking at numbers gleaned from 'studies' and IMHO mostly they revel nothing unless the study was done carefully, intelligently and with integrity. All these traits are missing at large in the scientific community. A broken clock is correct twice a day. Also factor in politics, something which I did not early on, most of us with a technical bent of mind are naively un-aware of this. Regarding autism + vaccines, I never looked into it. But I have looked at (and mostly listened to people who I think are credible have dug up numbers from the CDC website) and my conclusion is that for most part they are generally useless, perhaps 1 or 2 vaccines out of the 30 or so are truly effective. There are also instances of clear harm where populations what were vaccinated fell ill and the ones that we not vaccinated did not fall ill. Finally anecdotally, the people who most certainly get the flu are the ones that were vaccinated. Ofcourse people will dismiss that by saying anecdotes are not data. Where ever a vaccine did appear to have succeeded, there were other factors in play. A clear case of (well-intentioned) people who drink their own kool-aid believe that their efforts are paid off.
- eloisius 6y ago
  I reread what you posted a couple of times, and I still have no idea what your point is. Vaccines are or are not harmful? If they are harmful, would you assert any specific claims and provide evidence please?
  - dennis_jeeves 6y ago
    Well, the burden is proof is on the vaccine to show that is near completely safe and that it is clearly providing a benefit, isn't it? ( not the other way round where the burden of proof is put on someone to prove that it not harmful). The point that I'm trying to make is this - to the extent I have looked I see no clear benefit, and in some cases there appears to be a clear harm. So why bother taking it? >Vaccines are or are not harmful? My guess - only one 1 or 2 are effective, rest are either useless or harmful. These are ball park figures based on fair amount of reading/listening, I could be wrong. But it begs the question, why should it be so hard to see clear benefits? One has only so much time to investigate these things, I did it years back and have moved on. My default today is to mistrust anything that medicine has to offer. ( it used to be the other way round) Also don't forget to look at the drugs Thalidomide and Vioxx - should give you a glimpse of the how murky the industry is. These are IMO not isolated incidents. That should at least tip you off in the right direction. Last, but not the least - if a vaccine has clear benefits ( based on broader set of parameters that I would consider) , I would take it, who in their right mind does not want to protect their health?
cgriswald 6y ago
What is the libertarian argument against vaccination?
- andrewflnr 6y ago
  That you should not be legally required to vaccinate. I suspect this to be a smokescreen for the usual nonsense but, apropos of OP, they may believe it's their real reason.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]