2 ms·

This is a really complex topic, but just to throw out a few questions: - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity

This is a really complex topic, but just to throw out a few questions: - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. In any case, I’m talking mostly about the metaphysical model of treating the mind (ergo the brain) as the real Self and the societal consequences that leads to.

Kinrany 6y ago
Why do you care about identity in the first place?
- keiferski 6y ago
  Personally I’m not sure I care all that much. It’s just an interesting topic. That said, pretty much our entire legal system is built on specific concepts of identity. And most contemporary political issues seem based around it too.
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    Okay this brings us to an interesting point. Let's say someone committed a crime. And we take another innocent person, we swap their bodies from the neck. Which one would you punish?
the8472 6y ago
> - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. Not really. Your molecules turn over in a matter of days to years anyway (depending on the tissue and compounds in question). All that remains is information encoded in larger structures that are retained across that turnover. And the largest part of that is in the brain. > - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? By perceptible I meant observable in one way or another, even parameters that are only subconsciously noticeable such as hormonal balance, gut flora signalling, DNA methylation, immune memory or whatever is important to the stateful system of the body. These considerations add complexity if you want a high-fidelity replacement but they're still far fewer variables than the state maintained in your brain. > - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. I would say it's mostly you, a little me. Consider it as an exercise in tallying the number of non-redundant bits persistently stored in something. Its kolmogorov complexity. The body carries a smaller fraction of that.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1879 https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1879 Today we solved the Ship of Theseus, and yesterday I solved that one with the tree in the forest that makes a sound so I feel like we can finish solving philosophy by the end of the week.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  I think the parent poster makes a point not that the mind should be considered to be distributed throughout the body, but that "your identity" should extend beyond just your mind. So that even if your mind is not in your hand, your hand should still be part of your identity. I don't think I agree, but it doesn't seem preposterous either.

Kinrany 6y ago

Why do you care about identity in the first place?

keiferski 6y ago
Personally I’m not sure I care all that much. It’s just an interesting topic. That said, pretty much our entire legal system is built on specific concepts of identity. And most contemporary political issues seem based around it too.
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  Okay this brings us to an interesting point. Let's say someone committed a crime. And we take another innocent person, we swap their bodies from the neck. Which one would you punish?

the8472 6y ago

> - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. Not really. Your molecules turn over in a matter of days to years anyway (depending on the tissue and compounds in question). All that remains is information encoded in larger structures that are retained across that turnover. And the largest part of that is in the brain. > - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? By perceptible I meant observable in one way or another, even parameters that are only subconsciously noticeable such as hormonal balance, gut flora signalling, DNA methylation, immune memory or whatever is important to the stateful system of the body. These considerations add complexity if you want a high-fidelity replacement but they're still far fewer variables than the state maintained in your brain. > - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. I would say it's mostly you, a little me. Consider it as an exercise in tallying the number of non-redundant bits persistently stored in something. Its kolmogorov complexity. The body carries a smaller fraction of that.

ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1879 https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1879 Today we solved the Ship of Theseus, and yesterday I solved that one with the tree in the forest that makes a sound so I feel like we can finish solving philosophy by the end of the week.
tsimionescu 6y ago
I think the parent poster makes a point not that the mind should be considered to be distributed throughout the body, but that "your identity" should extend beyond just your mind. So that even if your mind is not in your hand, your hand should still be part of your identity. I don't think I agree, but it doesn't seem preposterous either.