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The fact that this is uncontroversial to a lot of people mostly just shows how intellect-focused our society has become. Plenty of other value systems treat the

The fact that this is uncontroversial to a lot of people mostly just shows how intellect-focused our society has become. Plenty of other value systems treat the Self as the entire body, not merely the head. Perhaps if we did too, we might not have so many issues with obesity and drug abuse. Dualism has consequences. I once read someone describe academics as “floating heads with bodies attached.” I think that could apply to society at large.

BorisTheBrave 6y ago
Or, people have already seen transplants and prosthetics, and it's easy to observe that the pros outweigh the cons.
MattGaiser 6y ago
Isn't this just science? We routinely replace every other part except the brain, whether by mechanical, artificial biological, or donor/transplant means. Prosthetic arms and legs are normal, millions need things like insulin replaced in their bodies that is manufactured by yeast, and every day thousands donate blood to be put into other people and replacing kidneys, hearts, lungs, and various other organs from those who are brain dead is routine. Everything except the brain is a swappable part (quality/success of swap may vary).
- keiferski 6y ago
  My point is that the reason we consider the entire body to be a “swappable part” is because we have constructed a metaphysics in which it is. That doesn’t make it actually the case, and furthermore, doing so has a lot of negative consequences for our actual embodied selves.
  - the8472 6y ago
    Metaphysics? What if I put you in a coma and wake you up a few days later and tell you a team of surgeons had replaced one of your internal organs with a lab-grown genetically equivalent version. Or maybe they just cut you open and closed you up again. Sure, there's a small scar left as evidence and some residual pain. But how would you be able to tell the difference? How does it connect to your perceptible self?
    - keiferski 6y ago
      This is a really complex topic, but just to throw out a few questions: - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. In any case, I’m talking mostly about the metaphysical model of treating the mind (ergo the brain) as the real Self and the societal consequences that leads to.
      - Kinrany 6y ago
        Why do you care about identity in the first place?
        keiferski 6y ago
        Personally I’m not sure I care all that much. It’s just an interesting topic. That said, pretty much our entire legal system is built on specific concepts of identity. And most contemporary political issues seem based around it too.
        mewpmewp2 6y ago
        Okay this brings us to an interesting point. Let's say someone committed a crime. And we take another innocent person, we swap their bodies from the neck. Which one would you punish?
      - the8472 6y ago
        > - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. Not really. Your molecules turn over in a matter of days to years anyway (depending on the tissue and compounds in question). All that remains is information encoded in larger structures that are retained across that turnover. And the largest part of that is in the brain. > - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? By perceptible I meant observable in one way or another, even parameters that are only subconsciously noticeable such as hormonal balance, gut flora signalling, DNA methylation, immune memory or whatever is important to the stateful system of the body. These considerations add complexity if you want a high-fidelity replacement but they're still far fewer variables than the state maintained in your brain. > - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. I would say it's mostly you, a little me. Consider it as an exercise in tallying the number of non-redundant bits persistently stored in something. Its kolmogorov complexity. The body carries a smaller fraction of that.
  - Nextgrid 6y ago
    > That doesn’t make it actually the case To the best of our knowledge and experience with it comes to transplanting organs, it seems to be? > doing so has a lot of negative consequences for our actual embodied selves Can you elaborate? Organ transplants (and most likely other medical procedures) definitely throw wrenches into various spiritual & religious beliefs, but in the physical world (which we can observe & study), beyond the immediate risks of the procedure and things like transplant rejection and the need for immunosuppression (which are by now understood well enough to do procedures with a reasonable likelihood of success), what other negative consequences are there? Organ transplants are done because the alternative is death or severely reduced quality of life and the patients, the medical community and society at large appears to agree otherwise they wouldn't be done. I'm not saying there aren't some hidden consequences we aren't aware of, but so far we haven't encountered any. As we push the envelope of what's currently possible we might stumble upon new ones and figure out way to mitigate them.
    - keiferski 6y ago
      I think it’s definitely a complex topic and not one that can be hashed out in a HN comment. My thought is something like this: because we treat our “real selves” as just our heads/minds, we unintentionally or intentionally disregard the rest of our body. To me, this seems to be related to some specific negative things like obesity, for example. Many people don’t treat their body with the same level of respect as they do their perceptions or their minds. Some old Daoist stuff delves into this a bit. In short, because we treat our minds separately from our bodies and we privilege consciousness and speech/thought, it has effects on what we do. It is also probably just conceptually wrong to think that our bodies are just a side accessory, especially when it comes to understanding how much of our actual intelligence comes from being embodied. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/
      - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
        >It is also probably just conceptually wrong to think that our bodies are just a side accessory, especially when it comes to understanding how much of our actual intelligence comes from being embodied. There's not a single study to show this, so calling it 'probably wrong' is just disingenuous. All the current results simply say 'sensory data impacts our cognition', which people who think that the brain encompasses the whole of the mind also believe. The real test would be whether 'faking' body parts by sending mock sensory data would lead to the same result as having the real body part.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - nkrisc 6y ago
    I think most people consider many body parts to be swappable because we've observed that they in fact are. The degree to which they are certainly varies, but every successful transplant is testament to the fact we can exchange body parts with one another.
- osacial 6y ago
  I remember reading some sci-fi story where gentleman had scrotum transplant and I had questions about that. As it appears, now I know, that transplanted scrotum will produce semen with dna of previous owner - not recipient. Also, there are cases, where transplanted bone marrows are rewriting dna of receiver. So, brain is swappable in the end as well... sure. Btw, your understanding of transplants is way too trivial - recipient body not always accept donor organs and people die because of it. Prosthetics are not transplants and they too can be rejected by body - and people who have them still "enjoy" side effects of not having proper arm or leg... the videos of happy sprinters with "better legs" do not convince me after I had been living with such people together, where higher body temperature is just one of those side effects of lost limb, not to mention dramatic impact on mind, where those battles about loss of limbs has to be battled every day.
mcv 6y ago
It doesn't just raise questions about the self, but also lots of legal questions. Imagine you would transplant a brain in a different body. Who is that person now legally? Technically, only a single organ got transplanted, and everything else is still the body donor. But of course the person has the memories and presumably the sense of self of the brain donor. But the finger prints, iris scan and DNA of the body donor. Of course we don't even know whether this sense of self is really purely attached to the brain. That brain is still connected to the rest of your body, and who knows what the body chemistry of the body donor will do to the new brain? Maybe we'll end up with a completely new person. Maybe not all memories will survive the transplant, but even if they do, you'll have a person who has the memories of the brain donor, but will be recognised by everybody as the body donor. Mind you, if you transplant the entire head and not just the brain, this issue will lean a lot more strongly towards the head donor.
- keiferski 6y ago
  Yep. Our whole legal system is built on the idea of one mind implanted in one body from birth. Things quickly start getting complicated when that breaks down.
  - Razengan 6y ago
    To really cook your goose imagine if we could not only freely modify and "jump" between bodies, but also edit our memories. Kinda like Total Recall turned up to 110, where you can implant fake experiences, remove bad memories, take on an entirely new persona, or clone yourself and have a relationship with your clone. What really makes you "you" then? There's a great little anime called Kaiba which explores exactly that: https://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba https://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba
    - georgyo 6y ago
      Altered Carbon sorta plays with this concept a lot. But it's set in a world were it is common place, and people have already detached identity from body.
bondarchuk 6y ago
Just because you don't like the implications, does not mean that it is false. If science shows that the vast majority of the "self" results from the brain, then we should try to find other ways to reduce obesity, drug abuse and general neglect of the body than to pretend that it is not the case.
f6v 6y ago
Consider how cyberpunk made people wish replacing body parts was possible. Adam Jensen “never asked for this”, but I bet many fantasized about having his see-through eyes and wall-breaking arms.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
swayvil 6y ago
The mass of communication (everybody talking to everybody. Media, social and otherwise) has become very self-referential. We have conversations about conversations and arguments about arguments. And the stronger argument does not refer to mere "observation" or "anecdote". No, it refers to a more authoritative argument. Be it a revered pundit or that-which-is-popular. Thus the communicating, arguing culture becomes even more self-referential as time goes on. And all that does not concern talking, thinking and arguing gets forgotten. And that forgotten part is 99.999% of reality. The act of focusing attention, which is also, implicitly, an act of vast ignoring, is a fascinating phenomenon.
d_tr 6y ago
Maybe these people (I am one of them) just do not have a reason to object to a consensual procedure that could save or drastically improve lives, and that's it?
libraryatnight 6y ago
Christopher Hitchens in Mortality describes his illness as making him become aware that he doesn't occupy a body, he IS a body.

BorisTheBrave 6y ago

Or, people have already seen transplants and prosthetics, and it's easy to observe that the pros outweigh the cons.

MattGaiser 6y ago

Isn't this just science? We routinely replace every other part except the brain, whether by mechanical, artificial biological, or donor/transplant means. Prosthetic arms and legs are normal, millions need things like insulin replaced in their bodies that is manufactured by yeast, and every day thousands donate blood to be put into other people and replacing kidneys, hearts, lungs, and various other organs from those who are brain dead is routine. Everything except the brain is a swappable part (quality/success of swap may vary).

keiferski 6y ago
My point is that the reason we consider the entire body to be a “swappable part” is because we have constructed a metaphysics in which it is. That doesn’t make it actually the case, and furthermore, doing so has a lot of negative consequences for our actual embodied selves.
- the8472 6y ago
  Metaphysics? What if I put you in a coma and wake you up a few days later and tell you a team of surgeons had replaced one of your internal organs with a lab-grown genetically equivalent version. Or maybe they just cut you open and closed you up again. Sure, there's a small scar left as evidence and some residual pain. But how would you be able to tell the difference? How does it connect to your perceptible self?
  - keiferski 6y ago
    This is a really complex topic, but just to throw out a few questions: - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. In any case, I’m talking mostly about the metaphysical model of treating the mind (ergo the brain) as the real Self and the societal consequences that leads to.
    - Kinrany 6y ago
      Why do you care about identity in the first place?
      - keiferski 6y ago
        Personally I’m not sure I care all that much. It’s just an interesting topic. That said, pretty much our entire legal system is built on specific concepts of identity. And most contemporary political issues seem based around it too.
        mewpmewp2 6y ago
        Okay this brings us to an interesting point. Let's say someone committed a crime. And we take another innocent person, we swap their bodies from the neck. Which one would you punish?
    - the8472 6y ago
      > - Is there a point at which replacing your organs replaces You? This is called the Ship of Theseus and is a pretty deep problem. Not really. Your molecules turn over in a matter of days to years anyway (depending on the tissue and compounds in question). All that remains is information encoded in larger structures that are retained across that turnover. And the largest part of that is in the brain. > - Why is our perceptible self the only thing that should determine our sense of identity? Aren’t there many aspects of our body and mind that aren’t we aren’t aware of on a conscious level? By perceptible I meant observable in one way or another, even parameters that are only subconsciously noticeable such as hormonal balance, gut flora signalling, DNA methylation, immune memory or whatever is important to the stateful system of the body. These considerations add complexity if you want a high-fidelity replacement but they're still far fewer variables than the state maintained in your brain. > - Is the ability to be conscious or communicate via language the sole determiner of a thing’s existence? If I put my head on your body, what is this new thing? Just me? My head on your body? Even if your cells and body continue to exist, with anything like tattoos or personal elements. Etc. I would say it's mostly you, a little me. Consider it as an exercise in tallying the number of non-redundant bits persistently stored in something. Its kolmogorov complexity. The body carries a smaller fraction of that.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  > That doesn’t make it actually the case To the best of our knowledge and experience with it comes to transplanting organs, it seems to be? > doing so has a lot of negative consequences for our actual embodied selves Can you elaborate? Organ transplants (and most likely other medical procedures) definitely throw wrenches into various spiritual & religious beliefs, but in the physical world (which we can observe & study), beyond the immediate risks of the procedure and things like transplant rejection and the need for immunosuppression (which are by now understood well enough to do procedures with a reasonable likelihood of success), what other negative consequences are there? Organ transplants are done because the alternative is death or severely reduced quality of life and the patients, the medical community and society at large appears to agree otherwise they wouldn't be done. I'm not saying there aren't some hidden consequences we aren't aware of, but so far we haven't encountered any. As we push the envelope of what's currently possible we might stumble upon new ones and figure out way to mitigate them.
  - keiferski 6y ago
    I think it’s definitely a complex topic and not one that can be hashed out in a HN comment. My thought is something like this: because we treat our “real selves” as just our heads/minds, we unintentionally or intentionally disregard the rest of our body. To me, this seems to be related to some specific negative things like obesity, for example. Many people don’t treat their body with the same level of respect as they do their perceptions or their minds. Some old Daoist stuff delves into this a bit. In short, because we treat our minds separately from our bodies and we privilege consciousness and speech/thought, it has effects on what we do. It is also probably just conceptually wrong to think that our bodies are just a side accessory, especially when it comes to understanding how much of our actual intelligence comes from being embodied. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/
    - ImprobableTruth 6y ago
      >It is also probably just conceptually wrong to think that our bodies are just a side accessory, especially when it comes to understanding how much of our actual intelligence comes from being embodied. There's not a single study to show this, so calling it 'probably wrong' is just disingenuous. All the current results simply say 'sensory data impacts our cognition', which people who think that the brain encompasses the whole of the mind also believe. The real test would be whether 'faking' body parts by sending mock sensory data would lead to the same result as having the real body part.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nkrisc 6y ago
  I think most people consider many body parts to be swappable because we've observed that they in fact are. The degree to which they are certainly varies, but every successful transplant is testament to the fact we can exchange body parts with one another.
osacial 6y ago
I remember reading some sci-fi story where gentleman had scrotum transplant and I had questions about that. As it appears, now I know, that transplanted scrotum will produce semen with dna of previous owner - not recipient. Also, there are cases, where transplanted bone marrows are rewriting dna of receiver. So, brain is swappable in the end as well... sure. Btw, your understanding of transplants is way too trivial - recipient body not always accept donor organs and people die because of it. Prosthetics are not transplants and they too can be rejected by body - and people who have them still "enjoy" side effects of not having proper arm or leg... the videos of happy sprinters with "better legs" do not convince me after I had been living with such people together, where higher body temperature is just one of those side effects of lost limb, not to mention dramatic impact on mind, where those battles about loss of limbs has to be battled every day.

mcv 6y ago

It doesn't just raise questions about the self, but also lots of legal questions. Imagine you would transplant a brain in a different body. Who is that person now legally? Technically, only a single organ got transplanted, and everything else is still the body donor. But of course the person has the memories and presumably the sense of self of the brain donor. But the finger prints, iris scan and DNA of the body donor. Of course we don't even know whether this sense of self is really purely attached to the brain. That brain is still connected to the rest of your body, and who knows what the body chemistry of the body donor will do to the new brain? Maybe we'll end up with a completely new person. Maybe not all memories will survive the transplant, but even if they do, you'll have a person who has the memories of the brain donor, but will be recognised by everybody as the body donor. Mind you, if you transplant the entire head and not just the brain, this issue will lean a lot more strongly towards the head donor.

keiferski 6y ago
Yep. Our whole legal system is built on the idea of one mind implanted in one body from birth. Things quickly start getting complicated when that breaks down.
- Razengan 6y ago
  To really cook your goose imagine if we could not only freely modify and "jump" between bodies, but also edit our memories. Kinda like Total Recall turned up to 110, where you can implant fake experiences, remove bad memories, take on an entirely new persona, or clone yourself and have a relationship with your clone. What really makes you "you" then? There's a great little anime called Kaiba which explores exactly that: https://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba https://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba
  - georgyo 6y ago
    Altered Carbon sorta plays with this concept a lot. But it's set in a world were it is common place, and people have already detached identity from body.

bondarchuk 6y ago

Just because you don't like the implications, does not mean that it is false. If science shows that the vast majority of the "self" results from the brain, then we should try to find other ways to reduce obesity, drug abuse and general neglect of the body than to pretend that it is not the case.

f6v 6y ago

Consider how cyberpunk made people wish replacing body parts was possible. Adam Jensen “never asked for this”, but I bet many fantasized about having his see-through eyes and wall-breaking arms.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

swayvil 6y ago

The mass of communication (everybody talking to everybody. Media, social and otherwise) has become very self-referential. We have conversations about conversations and arguments about arguments. And the stronger argument does not refer to mere "observation" or "anecdote". No, it refers to a more authoritative argument. Be it a revered pundit or that-which-is-popular. Thus the communicating, arguing culture becomes even more self-referential as time goes on. And all that does not concern talking, thinking and arguing gets forgotten. And that forgotten part is 99.999% of reality. The act of focusing attention, which is also, implicitly, an act of vast ignoring, is a fascinating phenomenon.

d_tr 6y ago

Maybe these people (I am one of them) just do not have a reason to object to a consensual procedure that could save or drastically improve lives, and that's it?

libraryatnight 6y ago

Christopher Hitchens in Mortality describes his illness as making him become aware that he doesn't occupy a body, he IS a body.