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> China is a hostile nation I really have no idea where this narrative comes from. Chinese government is evil, hostile, and cruel even to (some of) their own c

> China is a hostile nation I really have no idea where this narrative comes from. Chinese government is evil, hostile, and cruel even to (some of) their own citizens. However, China as a nation are people - just like you and me. Why should we treat them as "hostile"? It makes no sense at all. This kind of crooked reasoning and blurred thinking is one of the main causes of all wars in the history of mankind.

cameronh90 6y ago
Is anyone really of the view that most Chinese are evil? I don't think that's what calling them a hostile nation is meant to mean. The problem is that the Chinese government, who ARE hostile, take advantage of the fact that we treat most Chinese as non-hostile. Nobody knows how many Chinese students and workers in the West are essentially spies for the Chinese government, but we do know it is enough to be worried about. I'm not sure what we can do about that but I don't think we can pretend it's not an issue.
- Aunche 6y ago
  >Nobody knows how many Chinese students and workers in the West are essentially spies for the Chinese government But we do know how many of them are contributing domestically. A growing percentage of American PHD graduates came from China and the vast majority of them are planning to stay. https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Trends-in-U.S.-Intention-to-Stay-Rates.pdf https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Trends-i...
- adolph 6y ago
  Maybe the word evil should be thought of as “characterized by a value system of sufficient difference as to be in conflict with our own, either mutually or asymmetrically.”
- chrischen 6y ago
  If you believe that most Chinese citizens are in support of their government then calling the government evil is an indirect attack on them. If you don’t believe the Chinese support their government then that’s an entirely different topic you may have to educate yourself on.
  - smolder 6y ago
    Yes, I'm sure every workers' love of the CCP is genuine... Actually, their outward support is partly a function of how well the government treats them and partly a function of pressure to conform, of which there is quite a lot in China.
carapace 6y ago
Yeah, this. Chinese culture is much older and more widespread than the CCP. The Chinatown here in San Francisco is older than the state of California. We had our first Chinese New Year Parade in 1851. The Communists are the problem, and even then not unqualified: the CCP has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of relative poverty to economic prosperity, even as they do terrible things to Tibetans, Uighurs, and Falun Gong, among others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Chinese_New_Year_Parade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Chinese_New_Year...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- remarkEon 6y ago
  This is the hardest part about discussing this issue, for sure. The rapid technological and economic expansion achieved by CCP is the most impressive in all of human history in terms of numbers. It’s brutal, for sure, but that achievement means a lot of Chinese people are willing to look past the bad things, and look forward towards goals of further technological development. The important difference between the “West” and China is that everyone knows CCP is going to look out for China. It’s not immediately clear that governments in the west do the same for their own.
  - chrischen 6y ago
    I think you can argue the US government at least looks out for its own stakeholders, but one thing for sure is that the US government isn’t looking out for the interests of people of other countries. So when you stare wide-eyed wondering why some foreign nation doesn’t just do what the US says don’t be amazed.
    - remarkEon 6y ago
      >...looks out for its own stakeholders Right, and increasingly those "stakeholders" don't include the actual citizens of those nations.
yumraj 6y ago
By that logic at WW II, Germany was also a nation of German people, so am assuming per the above definition Germany was not a hostile nation? A nation is generally its government, CCP in the example of China and yes it is hostile against every non-China nation. Chinese are people just like every other people.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  > A nation is generally its government This is exactly the argument I object to. As per definition, "A nation is a community of people formed on the basis of a common language, territory, history, ethnicity, or a common culture." Keeping this distinction (between the government and the citizens) is crucial because the discourse influences actions.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    The people of China don't control espionage; the government does. So you'd better think about the government when the topic is espionage, which it is in this discussion.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
      Agreed, and that's exactly why I hate it when someone hijacks the discussion about the government and espionage by adding the nation to the equation.
      - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        "The nation" in this context is the government, no matter how much you keep trying to change the definition.
        dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        It's possible you have a custom, non-standard understanding of the term. According to Merriam Webster, it has 5 meanings, and none of them refers to the government. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation

cameronh90 6y ago

Is anyone really of the view that most Chinese are evil? I don't think that's what calling them a hostile nation is meant to mean. The problem is that the Chinese government, who ARE hostile, take advantage of the fact that we treat most Chinese as non-hostile. Nobody knows how many Chinese students and workers in the West are essentially spies for the Chinese government, but we do know it is enough to be worried about. I'm not sure what we can do about that but I don't think we can pretend it's not an issue.

Aunche 6y ago
>Nobody knows how many Chinese students and workers in the West are essentially spies for the Chinese government But we do know how many of them are contributing domestically. A growing percentage of American PHD graduates came from China and the vast majority of them are planning to stay. https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Trends-in-U.S.-Intention-to-Stay-Rates.pdf https://cset.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/CSET-Trends-i...
adolph 6y ago
Maybe the word evil should be thought of as “characterized by a value system of sufficient difference as to be in conflict with our own, either mutually or asymmetrically.”
chrischen 6y ago
If you believe that most Chinese citizens are in support of their government then calling the government evil is an indirect attack on them. If you don’t believe the Chinese support their government then that’s an entirely different topic you may have to educate yourself on.
- smolder 6y ago
  Yes, I'm sure every workers' love of the CCP is genuine... Actually, their outward support is partly a function of how well the government treats them and partly a function of pressure to conform, of which there is quite a lot in China.

carapace 6y ago

Yeah, this. Chinese culture is much older and more widespread than the CCP. The Chinatown here in San Francisco is older than the state of California. We had our first Chinese New Year Parade in 1851. The Communists are the problem, and even then not unqualified: the CCP has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of relative poverty to economic prosperity, even as they do terrible things to Tibetans, Uighurs, and Falun Gong, among others. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Chinese_New_Year_Parade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Chinese_New_Year...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
remarkEon 6y ago
This is the hardest part about discussing this issue, for sure. The rapid technological and economic expansion achieved by CCP is the most impressive in all of human history in terms of numbers. It’s brutal, for sure, but that achievement means a lot of Chinese people are willing to look past the bad things, and look forward towards goals of further technological development. The important difference between the “West” and China is that everyone knows CCP is going to look out for China. It’s not immediately clear that governments in the west do the same for their own.
- chrischen 6y ago
  I think you can argue the US government at least looks out for its own stakeholders, but one thing for sure is that the US government isn’t looking out for the interests of people of other countries. So when you stare wide-eyed wondering why some foreign nation doesn’t just do what the US says don’t be amazed.
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    >...looks out for its own stakeholders Right, and increasingly those "stakeholders" don't include the actual citizens of those nations.

yumraj 6y ago

By that logic at WW II, Germany was also a nation of German people, so am assuming per the above definition Germany was not a hostile nation? A nation is generally its government, CCP in the example of China and yes it is hostile against every non-China nation. Chinese are people just like every other people.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
> A nation is generally its government This is exactly the argument I object to. As per definition, "A nation is a community of people formed on the basis of a common language, territory, history, ethnicity, or a common culture." Keeping this distinction (between the government and the citizens) is crucial because the discourse influences actions.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  The people of China don't control espionage; the government does. So you'd better think about the government when the topic is espionage, which it is in this discussion.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
    Agreed, and that's exactly why I hate it when someone hijacks the discussion about the government and espionage by adding the nation to the equation.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      "The nation" in this context is the government, no matter how much you keep trying to change the definition.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
        It's possible you have a custom, non-standard understanding of the term. According to Merriam Webster, it has 5 meanings, and none of them refers to the government. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation