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Ignoring the hideous inappropriateness of the metaphor, you'd prefer the husband kept beating the wife? People do bad stuff for any number of reasons but stopp

Ignoring the hideous inappropriateness of the metaphor, you'd prefer the husband kept beating the wife? People do bad stuff for any number of reasons but stopping doing bad stuff is always a good thing.

StavrosK 15y ago
pornel's point is that this isn't a point in Apple's favor, they just saw that being horrible didn't work for them and scaled it down to being merely terrible. Also, I find the metaphor quite apt.
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  You really equate continual physical and mental abuse with unfavourable trade practices? Each to their own I guess. EDIT: My point is that it's a bad metaphor not because there are no links between the two but, as with most heavily emotive metaphors, it comes with too much baggage which distracts from the intended message. A metaphor doesn't have to be a perfect match for what it's describing but the broad content and emotional tone should be similar and here I think it's hard to justify that this is the case.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    Each case is about an abuse of rights. The scales vary a great deal, but that is common with metaphors, and not to be unexpected.
    - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
      My point is that it's a bad metaphor because, as with most metaphors which have emotional, criminal or violent connotations, it comes with too much baggage which distracts heavily from the intended message.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        The word you are looking for is "negative". Negative connotation. And yes, that is the point of the metaphor.
        Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
        No, the word I was looking for is emotive. I'm happy to accept that negative is reasonable here, I don't accept that emotive in this way this metaphor is, is useful or a good reflection of the situation.
      - recoiledsnake 15y ago
        So the following blog posts don't hold any such connotations for you? https://www.iflowreader.com/Closing.aspx https://www.iflowreader.com/Closing.aspx http://blog.readability.com/2011/02/an-open-letter-to-apple/ http://blog.readability.com/2011/02/an-open-letter-to-apple/ And those are just the tip of iceberg. Is killing the dreams of small businesses built on months of blood and sweat and money for no good reason an acceptable practice?
        Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
        Frankly no, it's business. In terms of iflow their level of innovation was minimal and they started their business on a platform that took a cut of music sales and a cut of app sales and were then surprised that Apple wanted a cut of other sales. Readability I'm very slightly more sad about because their model was slightly more interesting but fundamentally it's business and if you put yourself in a position where you're beholden to someone who has shown themselves to be ruthless then I can't get too worked up about it.
        Steko 15y ago
        Big bad Apple taking away all the success iflow was about to have in their dreams of being a third middleman of a zero marginal cost egood. At what point do the people at iflowreader and readability put on their big boy pants and take some responsibility for lack of their dreams coming true?
  - brudgers 15y ago
    A metaphor doesn't equate two things - it suggest some congruence among features. The original [great great grandparent] comparison was not primarily noting the congruence between Apple's behavior and wife beating, but rather the congruence between the praise some people were giving Apple for their change of behavior and praising someone for ceasing to beat their spouse.
    - inkaudio 15y ago
      Which makes it a bad metaphor, Apple's behavior is not abusive. We may not like it but Apple only wants a cut of the revenue they think they help generate. There is nothing in my developers agreement that will lead me to believe that Apple loves me so much and won't enact restrictions to my activity as an ios developer to increase their own profits. Our only recourse is to stop developing for Apple's app store.
  - StavrosK 15y ago
    Ah, that must be why people complain about my metaphors all the time. I am pretty good at not paying any attention to the baggage, which makes me judge a metaphor just on its merits, whereas other people complain because, ostensibly, they are offended by that.
    - scott_s 15y ago
      I don't have to be offended to think that the emotional baggage associated with a metaphor clouds discussion.
    - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
      Given that metaphors are about communication, that people complain about them all the time, and that communication is about other people, you might want to accept that they are bad metaphors.
      - StavrosK 15y ago
        Never! My metaphors are good like other things that are good.
        Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
        That's a simile, not a metaphor...
        StavrosK 15y ago
        A simile is a metaphor.
guelo 15y ago
The whole point of the metaphor is that it would be better if the wife beater hadn't started beating his wife in the first place and doesn't deserve any kudos at this point.
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  And my point is that's wrong. Things aren't that black and white, it's not a case of 100% good or 100% bad. While the ideal would be that they'd got it right first time, it's clearly better that they correct their mistakes than continue with them. And we should praise people for doing things that make things better because they should have the greatest possible incentive for doing so.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    The problem with that it doesn't seem like they backed out of the goodness of heart to benefit app developers. It seems to be that the major services like Kindle and Netflix etc. would've started pulling out if this wasn't done, and since that will greatly diminish the value of the iDevices, Apple was forced to back off to protect it's bottomline. Otherwise it would've continued to impose those fee on small developers and users. To come back to metaphor, it's like the man stopping beating the wife after he was finally threatened with a hefty fine.
    - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
      Yes, and he's still not beating his wife and that's good. Sure I'd have preferred it if it had come about some other way but this is still good. The reality is that companies only do things for their own benefit, directly or indirectly, Apple, Google and everyone else included and we shouldn't kid ourselves that they do anything else. Google don't make Android because they love freedom or giving stuff away, they do it because they make shedloads of cash through advertising off the back of mobile internet use on a platform they control. You may love the side effect but I honestly think you're kidding yourself if you think they're doing it out of altruism - after all, don't be evil is looking pretty flakey in quite a few areas now. (And please note I'm not trying to make this an Apple vs. Google thing, I'm just saying that this is what companies do - they do what works and makes them money). But ultimately when people screamed and shouted for them to change this stuff, what outcome were you looking for other than it be changed? People spoke and acted, they listened, surely that's good?

StavrosK 15y ago

pornel's point is that this isn't a point in Apple's favor, they just saw that being horrible didn't work for them and scaled it down to being merely terrible. Also, I find the metaphor quite apt.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
You really equate continual physical and mental abuse with unfavourable trade practices? Each to their own I guess. EDIT: My point is that it's a bad metaphor not because there are no links between the two but, as with most heavily emotive metaphors, it comes with too much baggage which distracts from the intended message. A metaphor doesn't have to be a perfect match for what it's describing but the broad content and emotional tone should be similar and here I think it's hard to justify that this is the case.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  Each case is about an abuse of rights. The scales vary a great deal, but that is common with metaphors, and not to be unexpected.
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    My point is that it's a bad metaphor because, as with most metaphors which have emotional, criminal or violent connotations, it comes with too much baggage which distracts heavily from the intended message.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      The word you are looking for is "negative". Negative connotation. And yes, that is the point of the metaphor.
      - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
        No, the word I was looking for is emotive. I'm happy to accept that negative is reasonable here, I don't accept that emotive in this way this metaphor is, is useful or a good reflection of the situation.
    - recoiledsnake 15y ago
      So the following blog posts don't hold any such connotations for you? https://www.iflowreader.com/Closing.aspx https://www.iflowreader.com/Closing.aspx http://blog.readability.com/2011/02/an-open-letter-to-apple/ http://blog.readability.com/2011/02/an-open-letter-to-apple/ And those are just the tip of iceberg. Is killing the dreams of small businesses built on months of blood and sweat and money for no good reason an acceptable practice?
      - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
        Frankly no, it's business. In terms of iflow their level of innovation was minimal and they started their business on a platform that took a cut of music sales and a cut of app sales and were then surprised that Apple wanted a cut of other sales. Readability I'm very slightly more sad about because their model was slightly more interesting but fundamentally it's business and if you put yourself in a position where you're beholden to someone who has shown themselves to be ruthless then I can't get too worked up about it.
      - Steko 15y ago
        Big bad Apple taking away all the success iflow was about to have in their dreams of being a third middleman of a zero marginal cost egood. At what point do the people at iflowreader and readability put on their big boy pants and take some responsibility for lack of their dreams coming true?
- brudgers 15y ago
  A metaphor doesn't equate two things - it suggest some congruence among features. The original [great great grandparent] comparison was not primarily noting the congruence between Apple's behavior and wife beating, but rather the congruence between the praise some people were giving Apple for their change of behavior and praising someone for ceasing to beat their spouse.
  - inkaudio 15y ago
    Which makes it a bad metaphor, Apple's behavior is not abusive. We may not like it but Apple only wants a cut of the revenue they think they help generate. There is nothing in my developers agreement that will lead me to believe that Apple loves me so much and won't enact restrictions to my activity as an ios developer to increase their own profits. Our only recourse is to stop developing for Apple's app store.
- StavrosK 15y ago
  Ah, that must be why people complain about my metaphors all the time. I am pretty good at not paying any attention to the baggage, which makes me judge a metaphor just on its merits, whereas other people complain because, ostensibly, they are offended by that.
  - scott_s 15y ago
    I don't have to be offended to think that the emotional baggage associated with a metaphor clouds discussion.
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    Given that metaphors are about communication, that people complain about them all the time, and that communication is about other people, you might want to accept that they are bad metaphors.
    - StavrosK 15y ago
      Never! My metaphors are good like other things that are good.
      - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
        That's a simile, not a metaphor...
        StavrosK 15y ago
        A simile is a metaphor.

guelo 15y ago

The whole point of the metaphor is that it would be better if the wife beater hadn't started beating his wife in the first place and doesn't deserve any kudos at this point.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
And my point is that's wrong. Things aren't that black and white, it's not a case of 100% good or 100% bad. While the ideal would be that they'd got it right first time, it's clearly better that they correct their mistakes than continue with them. And we should praise people for doing things that make things better because they should have the greatest possible incentive for doing so.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  The problem with that it doesn't seem like they backed out of the goodness of heart to benefit app developers. It seems to be that the major services like Kindle and Netflix etc. would've started pulling out if this wasn't done, and since that will greatly diminish the value of the iDevices, Apple was forced to back off to protect it's bottomline. Otherwise it would've continued to impose those fee on small developers and users. To come back to metaphor, it's like the man stopping beating the wife after he was finally threatened with a hefty fine.
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    Yes, and he's still not beating his wife and that's good. Sure I'd have preferred it if it had come about some other way but this is still good. The reality is that companies only do things for their own benefit, directly or indirectly, Apple, Google and everyone else included and we shouldn't kid ourselves that they do anything else. Google don't make Android because they love freedom or giving stuff away, they do it because they make shedloads of cash through advertising off the back of mobile internet use on a platform they control. You may love the side effect but I honestly think you're kidding yourself if you think they're doing it out of altruism - after all, don't be evil is looking pretty flakey in quite a few areas now. (And please note I'm not trying to make this an Apple vs. Google thing, I'm just saying that this is what companies do - they do what works and makes them money). But ultimately when people screamed and shouted for them to change this stuff, what outcome were you looking for other than it be changed? People spoke and acted, they listened, surely that's good?