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VSCode won't kill IDEA, but it is a huge warning for Jetbrains They better invest A LOT MORE into solving slow startup and performance issues that are plaguing

VSCode won't kill IDEA, but it is a huge warning for Jetbrains They better invest A LOT MORE into solving slow startup and performance issues that are plaguing their IDEs since the beginning Time to ditch Java on the desktop, or invest in a native AOT compiler / or use GraalVM

brandonmenc 6y ago
I have been using JetBrains IDEs for about a decade, after having used emacs for nearly two decades. I have never felt that JetBrains was slow, but I hear that a lot here. I'm curious what situations people are finding JetBrains' speed to be impacting usability.
- santamarias 6y ago
  Using Windows, comparing different Jetbrains products to VS Code, I personally experience for example a constant input lag in the terminal (Powershell) emulator (?) on Jetbrains IDEs.
  - tharkun__ 6y ago
    IntelliJ user here. Both on Windows (personal) and Mac OS (work). I never understood why people use the terminals built into their IDE. Can you explain the use case for this? Genuine question. I do certain stuff via the command line and other stuff via the IDE. But switching between windows and just using the native tool for its own job seems the most natural to me. Is there some sort of awesome integration or something that I'm missing out on?
    - jvolkman 6y ago
      One reason is to be able to full screen the IDE and use its built-in windowing/paneling for editing and terminal.
      - tharkun__ 6y ago
        That seems to intuitively make sense as a want, if I consider the fact that many other devs tell me that they never want to leave their IDE, even just to open a PR or whatever. Is this windowing support somehow superior to using regular windowing and shortcuts? I ask because I personally find that getting used to a new set of shortcuts takes considerable time and creates frustration when you mix em up. I switched to IntelliJ from eclipse and wanted to learn IntelliJ native shortcuts instead of using eclipse settings. There's something to be said for everyone to 'speak the same language' when interacting and helping each other. Anyhow back to windowing, I personally like to just have whatever application I use to be open full screen (minus any menu bars, docks etc). and having the same set of shortcuts to interact with any window (CMD-TAB or CMD-~ works the same on all of them - substitute CTRL-TAB for Windows) is awesome. Similarly I know some people use a tiling window manager and I would gather that it would even be beneficial if each internal window in IntelliJ could be detached and arranged by that window manager (sort of like Photoshop/Gimp does on Mac) using its own shortcuts. An example in frustration for me is the debugger in Chrome. The times I've closed the Chrome tab because I wanted to close the open file (which looks like a tab to me) with CMD+TAB is staggering ;) Caveat: I might be biased by seeing people awkwardly click around to find the right internal window and then the terminal or other tool is way too small to be useful if you ask me. Another 'integration' into IDEs that I don't understand is the source control. They also in many cases rename functions which makes for awkward conversations. Though they seem to learn e.g. people have an easier time now to find the function in IntelliJ if I ask the to show me the 'git blame' as it's called "Annotate with git blame" now. Whether a current employer gives me Windows, Linux or Mac OS, I work on Java and have IntelliJ or do whatever else, using command line git and gitk and Kdiff3 will always look and behave the same.
        chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        I've never quite figured out the advantage to these integrations, either. The only "terminal" that I use occasionally in an editor is BBEdit's "Shell worksheet", which is actually just a plain text document that will send the current line to a shell when you press ^Enter and paste the output into the document starting at the following line. (This is equivalent to Emacs's Shell mode; I don't think I've seen it in other editors.) And I only use that in cases where I want to capture terminal output and do stuff with it in a text editor because, hey, it's right there. And, so far I've never found a source control integration that I really like more than using command line git or, on specific occasions, standalone git GUI clients.
- eralps 6y ago
  Sometimes I just want to read code with highlighting. I want to open the project and search for some text in all the files. I don't want to wait for IntelliJ to take 30 seconds to open.
  - _underfl0w_ 6y ago
    You could use grep with vim or nano for quick searches and viewing without even leaving your terminal. Why bother with a GUI at all for that use case?
    - sidsidev 6y ago
      The delineation between those and VSCode seems unclear.
    - eralps 6y ago
      This idea assumes that one I am familiar with grep and vim or nano and two that I was using my terminal already. Which can be true or wrong. But, the discussion is not about whats the best way for searching for text in a file set. I am just talking about whats the use case in which I prefer VSCode over IntelliJ.
  - jvolkman 6y ago
    They've had something like that for a year. https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/04/lightedit-mode/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/04/lightedit-mode/
    - eralps 6y ago
      This is great but it has a lot of limitations. I will give it a try thanks.
inshadows 6y ago
Hot buzz without much substance. You propose hipster driven development. Ignore lessons from the past and repeat all mistakes and deficiencies in super shiny alphabet soup of technology. Look at node.js ecosystem to see where this leads to. IDEA is fast once it starts up. It's not supposed to be used as Notepad (or Vim).
zmmmmm 6y ago
> slow startup Curious how often you start your IDE? For me it's at most once every few days. But then, I use Eclipse which has amazing multi-project support so there is nearly never a need to restart to switch contexts - its just choosing a different working set ...
- dhosek 6y ago
  Agreed. I think I restart my IDE roughly as often as I reboot my computer which means I've had IDEA and CLion running for about 22 days right now.
ex3ndr 6y ago
Java is not slow, even JS is not slow. 10% performance improvement doesn't make sense for rewrite.
- Flex247A 6y ago
  Java's not slow, but IntelliJ consumes a lot of RAM. On computers with less than 8GB RAM, the constant swapping causes bad performance.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Shadonototro 6y ago
  java and JS are slow, it is how they work, they are JIT'd languages running in a VM, this alone makes the program slow by default are people in this website not supposed to be programmers? or it's too late to expect programs to be fast again?

brandonmenc 6y ago

I have been using JetBrains IDEs for about a decade, after having used emacs for nearly two decades. I have never felt that JetBrains was slow, but I hear that a lot here. I'm curious what situations people are finding JetBrains' speed to be impacting usability.

santamarias 6y ago
Using Windows, comparing different Jetbrains products to VS Code, I personally experience for example a constant input lag in the terminal (Powershell) emulator (?) on Jetbrains IDEs.
- tharkun__ 6y ago
  IntelliJ user here. Both on Windows (personal) and Mac OS (work). I never understood why people use the terminals built into their IDE. Can you explain the use case for this? Genuine question. I do certain stuff via the command line and other stuff via the IDE. But switching between windows and just using the native tool for its own job seems the most natural to me. Is there some sort of awesome integration or something that I'm missing out on?
  - jvolkman 6y ago
    One reason is to be able to full screen the IDE and use its built-in windowing/paneling for editing and terminal.
    - tharkun__ 6y ago
      That seems to intuitively make sense as a want, if I consider the fact that many other devs tell me that they never want to leave their IDE, even just to open a PR or whatever. Is this windowing support somehow superior to using regular windowing and shortcuts? I ask because I personally find that getting used to a new set of shortcuts takes considerable time and creates frustration when you mix em up. I switched to IntelliJ from eclipse and wanted to learn IntelliJ native shortcuts instead of using eclipse settings. There's something to be said for everyone to 'speak the same language' when interacting and helping each other. Anyhow back to windowing, I personally like to just have whatever application I use to be open full screen (minus any menu bars, docks etc). and having the same set of shortcuts to interact with any window (CMD-TAB or CMD-~ works the same on all of them - substitute CTRL-TAB for Windows) is awesome. Similarly I know some people use a tiling window manager and I would gather that it would even be beneficial if each internal window in IntelliJ could be detached and arranged by that window manager (sort of like Photoshop/Gimp does on Mac) using its own shortcuts. An example in frustration for me is the debugger in Chrome. The times I've closed the Chrome tab because I wanted to close the open file (which looks like a tab to me) with CMD+TAB is staggering ;) Caveat: I might be biased by seeing people awkwardly click around to find the right internal window and then the terminal or other tool is way too small to be useful if you ask me. Another 'integration' into IDEs that I don't understand is the source control. They also in many cases rename functions which makes for awkward conversations. Though they seem to learn e.g. people have an easier time now to find the function in IntelliJ if I ask the to show me the 'git blame' as it's called "Annotate with git blame" now. Whether a current employer gives me Windows, Linux or Mac OS, I work on Java and have IntelliJ or do whatever else, using command line git and gitk and Kdiff3 will always look and behave the same.
      - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        I've never quite figured out the advantage to these integrations, either. The only "terminal" that I use occasionally in an editor is BBEdit's "Shell worksheet", which is actually just a plain text document that will send the current line to a shell when you press ^Enter and paste the output into the document starting at the following line. (This is equivalent to Emacs's Shell mode; I don't think I've seen it in other editors.) And I only use that in cases where I want to capture terminal output and do stuff with it in a text editor because, hey, it's right there. And, so far I've never found a source control integration that I really like more than using command line git or, on specific occasions, standalone git GUI clients.
eralps 6y ago
Sometimes I just want to read code with highlighting. I want to open the project and search for some text in all the files. I don't want to wait for IntelliJ to take 30 seconds to open.
- _underfl0w_ 6y ago
  You could use grep with vim or nano for quick searches and viewing without even leaving your terminal. Why bother with a GUI at all for that use case?
  - sidsidev 6y ago
    The delineation between those and VSCode seems unclear.
  - eralps 6y ago
    This idea assumes that one I am familiar with grep and vim or nano and two that I was using my terminal already. Which can be true or wrong. But, the discussion is not about whats the best way for searching for text in a file set. I am just talking about whats the use case in which I prefer VSCode over IntelliJ.
- jvolkman 6y ago
  They've had something like that for a year. https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/04/lightedit-mode/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/04/lightedit-mode/
  - eralps 6y ago
    This is great but it has a lot of limitations. I will give it a try thanks.

inshadows 6y ago

Hot buzz without much substance. You propose hipster driven development. Ignore lessons from the past and repeat all mistakes and deficiencies in super shiny alphabet soup of technology. Look at node.js ecosystem to see where this leads to. IDEA is fast once it starts up. It's not supposed to be used as Notepad (or Vim).

zmmmmm 6y ago

> slow startup Curious how often you start your IDE? For me it's at most once every few days. But then, I use Eclipse which has amazing multi-project support so there is nearly never a need to restart to switch contexts - its just choosing a different working set ...

dhosek 6y ago
Agreed. I think I restart my IDE roughly as often as I reboot my computer which means I've had IDEA and CLion running for about 22 days right now.

ex3ndr 6y ago

Java is not slow, even JS is not slow. 10% performance improvement doesn't make sense for rewrite.

Flex247A 6y ago
Java's not slow, but IntelliJ consumes a lot of RAM. On computers with less than 8GB RAM, the constant swapping causes bad performance.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Shadonototro 6y ago
java and JS are slow, it is how they work, they are JIT'd languages running in a VM, this alone makes the program slow by default are people in this website not supposed to be programmers? or it's too late to expect programs to be fast again?