5 ms·

But bitcoin is just a scam of course.

by mlthoughts2018 6y ago

christophilus 6y ago
You're downvoted, but I think this is a fair point. If I were in a banana republic, I'd rather have bitcoin than my government's fiat. I'd rather have silver / gold than either, though, or at least some combination of all the above.
- meowfly 6y ago
  I'm skeptical of crypto but the strongest case certainly seems to be for funding illegal activities and capital flight. If you had to flee your country gold/silver will be far more trouble than BTC.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    > strongest case certainly seems to be for funding illegal activities and capital flight A currency with built-in functionality to track everything, forever and making that data public seems to be good for funding illegal activities? I would like to think just cash in various currencies would be the best for that. Washing cash is not exactly a new thing and sometimes boring technology is best.
    - mannerheim 6y ago
      There are cryptocurrencies with anonymity features (e.g., Monero, Zcash), but I recall reading that users often leak information.
    - meowfly 6y ago
      I should have said "engage in illegal activities" to be more precise. If I wanted to, right now, buy drugs online, engage in illegal online gambling, ransom someone's data, etc it will most likely be done in BTC or maybe Monero.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  It’s ok. The type of HN users who downvote comments like this do not offer anything. The downvote literally means nothing apart from their tribalistic “bitcoin bad” unfounded assertions. It’s very easy to not care. Meanwhile, people in Venezuela who diverted some assets into bitcoin can actually transact for food or medicine at prices less volatile than the local fiat currency, even including high transaction fees and verification times. Things they can’t do with precious metals held by custodians that transact in the fiat currency, let alone the fiat itself. But by all means, let’s hear some more specious “Bitcoin mining uses X amount of (largely renewable) energy and I personally happen to think X is too large for what I perceive to be no benefits” diatribes.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  If those things were as convenient as using actual US cash then I'm sure they would use it. Crypto and commodities have a huge UX problem to overcome. So right now in Venezuela I would much rather have traditional US cash than anything else.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Hence adoption of Bitcoin in Venezuela is much quicker than the rest of the world. Example: https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-paxful-activity-map https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-pa... Would love to see an updated map, but I'm not sure I understand how I could update the data behind it.
kleer001 6y ago
@Travis_Kling: "Bitcoin is a non-sovereign, hard-capped supply, global, immutable, decentralized digital store of value. It's an insurance policy against monetary and fiscal policy irresponsibility from central banks and governments globally."
- ineedasername 6y ago
  But it's not practically usable for transactions, which means if the economy tanks tomorrow and you have bitcoin, you won't be able to spend it. In fact the increased demand to spend it combined with fixed amount of transactions allowed would mean all of the new demand would cause massive inflation in bitcoin transaction fees as more and more people need to use it. This isn't anti-crypto. This is anti-bitcoin as a practical asset if things hit the fan.
  - mlthoughts2018 6y ago
    ? it seems like you are expecting bitcoin to achieve the same ease of use as a payment processor like Visa, but that is not and never has been the goal or point of bitcoin. “Ease of use” is a relative term. Bitcoin is deeply impractical compared with fiat currencies backed by strong governments. Who cares? It is deeply practical when compared to fiat currencies for unstable or severely corrupt governments.
  - kleer001 6y ago
    > if the economy tanks tomorrow and you have bitcoin Precisely which economy? The world? You're going to have a lot more problems than just spending money if the world economy crashes.

But bitcoin is just a scam of course.

You're downvoted, but I think this is a fair point. If I were in a banana republic, I'd rather have bitcoin than my government's fiat. I'd rather have silver / gold than either, though, or at least some combination of all the above.

meowfly 6y ago
I'm skeptical of crypto but the strongest case certainly seems to be for funding illegal activities and capital flight. If you had to flee your country gold/silver will be far more trouble than BTC.
- capableweb 6y ago
  > strongest case certainly seems to be for funding illegal activities and capital flight A currency with built-in functionality to track everything, forever and making that data public seems to be good for funding illegal activities? I would like to think just cash in various currencies would be the best for that. Washing cash is not exactly a new thing and sometimes boring technology is best.
  - mannerheim 6y ago
    There are cryptocurrencies with anonymity features (e.g., Monero, Zcash), but I recall reading that users often leak information.
  - meowfly 6y ago
    I should have said "engage in illegal activities" to be more precise. If I wanted to, right now, buy drugs online, engage in illegal online gambling, ransom someone's data, etc it will most likely be done in BTC or maybe Monero.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
It’s ok. The type of HN users who downvote comments like this do not offer anything. The downvote literally means nothing apart from their tribalistic “bitcoin bad” unfounded assertions. It’s very easy to not care. Meanwhile, people in Venezuela who diverted some assets into bitcoin can actually transact for food or medicine at prices less volatile than the local fiat currency, even including high transaction fees and verification times. Things they can’t do with precious metals held by custodians that transact in the fiat currency, let alone the fiat itself. But by all means, let’s hear some more specious “Bitcoin mining uses X amount of (largely renewable) energy and I personally happen to think X is too large for what I perceive to be no benefits” diatribes.
ineedasername 6y ago
If those things were as convenient as using actual US cash then I'm sure they would use it. Crypto and commodities have a huge UX problem to overcome. So right now in Venezuela I would much rather have traditional US cash than anything else.
capableweb 6y ago
Hence adoption of Bitcoin in Venezuela is much quicker than the rest of the world. Example: https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-paxful-activity-map https://observablehq.com/@coindesk-research/localbitcoins-pa... Would love to see an updated map, but I'm not sure I understand how I could update the data behind it.

kleer001 6y ago

@Travis_Kling: "Bitcoin is a non-sovereign, hard-capped supply, global, immutable, decentralized digital store of value. It's an insurance policy against monetary and fiscal policy irresponsibility from central banks and governments globally."

ineedasername 6y ago
But it's not practically usable for transactions, which means if the economy tanks tomorrow and you have bitcoin, you won't be able to spend it. In fact the increased demand to spend it combined with fixed amount of transactions allowed would mean all of the new demand would cause massive inflation in bitcoin transaction fees as more and more people need to use it. This isn't anti-crypto. This is anti-bitcoin as a practical asset if things hit the fan.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  ? it seems like you are expecting bitcoin to achieve the same ease of use as a payment processor like Visa, but that is not and never has been the goal or point of bitcoin. “Ease of use” is a relative term. Bitcoin is deeply impractical compared with fiat currencies backed by strong governments. Who cares? It is deeply practical when compared to fiat currencies for unstable or severely corrupt governments.
- kleer001 6y ago
  > if the economy tanks tomorrow and you have bitcoin Precisely which economy? The world? You're going to have a lot more problems than just spending money if the world economy crashes.