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I haven’t tried the Java integration but based on using VSCode for TypeScript I could imagine feature parity. VSCode is so good that it makes me concerned Micr

I haven’t tried the Java integration but based on using VSCode for TypeScript I could imagine feature parity. VSCode is so good that it makes me concerned Microsoft is just using it to eat at JetBrains until they up and start charging for it in the future. Not sure how else to see it.

whynotminot 6y ago
So VSCode is very, very good for TypeScript. Hell, I'm pretty sure VSCode itself is written in TypeScript! But that does not carry over to all languages. When working on web apps with a Java backend, I still prefer Idea because it's better for Java and close enough for TypeScript so it comes out ahead over all.
- dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
  > But that does not carry over to all languages. It does. All languages are basically the same. They parse to ASTs that you can manipulate programmatically. If those ASTs are strongly typed, you can safely perform refractors. What makes IntelliJ good is the base framework JetBrains uses, the same one they use in WebStorm, PyCharm, etc. VSCode is that same thing: an adaptable base and I’m sure making it on par for Java if it isn’t already will happened is only a matter of time if they invest.
  - whynotminot 6y ago
    > All languages are basically the same. Well that settles that, then. Thanks for playing folks wrap up the site! We’re done here.
  - wokwokwok 6y ago
    No. Microsoft has delegated Java support to redhat. ...no surprise, why would they waste their time on it? They give zero fruitcakes about Java. Let’s just say, 3rd party plugins (like the redhat Java language support) are.... not of the same quality... as the Microsoft plugins.
    - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
      It’s possible they lack vision and focus for this thing, such that they go out and do “Java support” without making it good or caring about it. On the other hand, we’re talking about Microsoft. If you lived in the 90s, I find it hard to imagine how you can see Microsoft in any other light. I know: different times, different leadership. But still: it seems possible that they’ve got a huge vision for this and want to do the equivalent of Internet Explorer 1 and 2 just to be out in the market, so they can come back and do versions 3 and 4 as their position has become entrenched.
      - Delmania 6y ago
        I think it’s less that and more that Microsoft is leveraging Redhat’s focus on Java. They have built a good editor and plug-in environment, then engage organizations stronger in other tech and have them build support.
    - newlisper 6y ago
      Actually, Microsoft cares a lot about Java and they invest resources on it. Why? azure https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Reality check, Microsoft is a Java vendor nowadays, after having bought jClarity, has a seat at OpenJDK table, official Java blog in English and Chinese on MSDN, and Java is the only plaform that has biggest parity with .NET features on Azure.
  - matsemann 6y ago
    The language server is a really small part of an IDE, though. IDEA has soo many Java specific features I use every day (like maven, spring and other tools, debugger, hot reloading, profiling etc), and other non-language specific stuff like db viewer.
  - uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y ago
    Eventually LSP will be totally solved.
  - arcturus17 6y ago
    Absolutely not, there are many, many language-specific things that an IDE does beyond code hints. Microsoft doesn't seem to be investing that much, if anything, on languages other than JS/TS; it is delegating all on the OSS community through plugins. And while some of the plugins are really good, in my experience they don't even come close to the native capabilities of Jetbrains products.
    - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
      This is what Microsoft does. Their #1 thing is being in the market even if the product is bad. They’re delegating now, but wait until they’ve established their foothold, leveled up the core framework. Then they’re going to stop delegating one language after another.
      - tharkun__ 6y ago
        Embrace: put out an open source code editor. Extend: have a plugin system that everyone can contribute to (sounds like eclipse or IntelliJ CE) and even make money off of. Plugins don't have to be free. Extinguish: make your own plugins with full refactoring support etc. for the languages you see most actively used (everyone uses it for Go and Python now? Make a good enough plugin for that. Nobody uses it for Erlang anyway? Leave it to the community) The good old MS in action.
        arcturus17 6y ago
        It remains to be seen whether they will find this economical when they are not making any direct revenue on the product. I understand that VSCode is part of a grand strategic plan that goes beyond revenue, but I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to internally maintain the absolute truckload of code that would ensue from getting to feature parity with Jetbrains on languages like Java or Python. I'd wager at some point the quality would derail, or someone would pull the plug altogether on such a cost sink. And that's one of the things I love about Jetbrains products. I'm actually delighted to pay for a product that I use every day for ~8 hours and which I think is extremely well-designed, knowing that the money is going to a company of craftsmen who do that, and only that.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    Could not be further from the truth. Even with rope installed, VSCode won't always allow me to rename a variable and just silently fails.
    - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
      Python is not a strongly typed language and renaming variables in such a language is a minefield. I've used PyCharm and WebStorm and never felt comfortable using their variable rename facilities for Python and Javascript. If they do it better than rope then that's good, but you need to write those languages in a very specific if you want IDE renamings to succeed. IMO, that rope fails silently might be viewed as more of a feature than a bug :). Anyway, I'm sure it will be improved.
      - happymellon 6y ago
        Python might not be strongly typed, but VS Code appears to be able to rename variables in JS quite well, and PyCharm has never failed me. VS Code fails me for anything that isn't JS/TS in the worst way.
- Wintereise 6y ago
  My experience is the opposite with VSCode and TS, actually. It becomes obvious that Jetbrains understands MSFT's own language (TS) better than VSCode the moment you actually need real IDE-like features (such as refactors) to work.
arcturus17 6y ago
I think VSCode is really good, but even when I was only writing JS I ended up preferring WebStorm. I like its refactoring tools and command palette better, and I also prefer its "batteries-included" rather than "plugin-first" approach (although I do have a few plugins on JetBrains products always, such as Vim, there are significantly fewer than in VSCode) Anecdotally, I know other devs in the same situation. You wouldn't pry WebStorm from their cold dead hands, even with an excellent free offering like VSCode. But I also know some who don't understand why you would pay for WebStorm when VSCode is free, which is reasonable (though if they took WS for a spin, they might change their minds). Now that I write mostly Python and JS there is no contest at all. I get all the JS/TS goodies, plus absolutely amazing Python features. Like GP is saying, I don't think JetBrains and VSCode even compete that much. Maybe VSCode will capture a good part of the JS world - which is huge of course - but I think WebStorm will maintain a decent foothold there no matter what, and I think JetBrains will remain very strong in other languages.
luxuryballs 6y ago
I feel like we are kind of ignoring how Visual Studio plays into this, do we really expect Microsoft to replace it with VS Code? I feel like Visual Studio Pro/Ent is more of a competition with other paid IDEs and VS Code won’t be, perhaps somewhat so it isn’t positioned to eat Visual Studio?

whynotminot 6y ago

So VSCode is very, very good for TypeScript. Hell, I'm pretty sure VSCode itself is written in TypeScript! But that does not carry over to all languages. When working on web apps with a Java backend, I still prefer Idea because it's better for Java and close enough for TypeScript so it comes out ahead over all.

dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
> But that does not carry over to all languages. It does. All languages are basically the same. They parse to ASTs that you can manipulate programmatically. If those ASTs are strongly typed, you can safely perform refractors. What makes IntelliJ good is the base framework JetBrains uses, the same one they use in WebStorm, PyCharm, etc. VSCode is that same thing: an adaptable base and I’m sure making it on par for Java if it isn’t already will happened is only a matter of time if they invest.
- whynotminot 6y ago
  > All languages are basically the same. Well that settles that, then. Thanks for playing folks wrap up the site! We’re done here.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  No. Microsoft has delegated Java support to redhat. ...no surprise, why would they waste their time on it? They give zero fruitcakes about Java. Let’s just say, 3rd party plugins (like the redhat Java language support) are.... not of the same quality... as the Microsoft plugins.
  - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
    It’s possible they lack vision and focus for this thing, such that they go out and do “Java support” without making it good or caring about it. On the other hand, we’re talking about Microsoft. If you lived in the 90s, I find it hard to imagine how you can see Microsoft in any other light. I know: different times, different leadership. But still: it seems possible that they’ve got a huge vision for this and want to do the equivalent of Internet Explorer 1 and 2 just to be out in the market, so they can come back and do versions 3 and 4 as their position has become entrenched.
    - Delmania 6y ago
      I think it’s less that and more that Microsoft is leveraging Redhat’s focus on Java. They have built a good editor and plug-in environment, then engage organizations stronger in other tech and have them build support.
  - newlisper 6y ago
    Actually, Microsoft cares a lot about Java and they invest resources on it. Why? azure https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Reality check, Microsoft is a Java vendor nowadays, after having bought jClarity, has a seat at OpenJDK table, official Java blog in English and Chinese on MSDN, and Java is the only plaform that has biggest parity with .NET features on Azure.
- matsemann 6y ago
  The language server is a really small part of an IDE, though. IDEA has soo many Java specific features I use every day (like maven, spring and other tools, debugger, hot reloading, profiling etc), and other non-language specific stuff like db viewer.
- uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y ago
  Eventually LSP will be totally solved.
- arcturus17 6y ago
  Absolutely not, there are many, many language-specific things that an IDE does beyond code hints. Microsoft doesn't seem to be investing that much, if anything, on languages other than JS/TS; it is delegating all on the OSS community through plugins. And while some of the plugins are really good, in my experience they don't even come close to the native capabilities of Jetbrains products.
  - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
    This is what Microsoft does. Their #1 thing is being in the market even if the product is bad. They’re delegating now, but wait until they’ve established their foothold, leveled up the core framework. Then they’re going to stop delegating one language after another.
    - tharkun__ 6y ago
      Embrace: put out an open source code editor. Extend: have a plugin system that everyone can contribute to (sounds like eclipse or IntelliJ CE) and even make money off of. Plugins don't have to be free. Extinguish: make your own plugins with full refactoring support etc. for the languages you see most actively used (everyone uses it for Go and Python now? Make a good enough plugin for that. Nobody uses it for Erlang anyway? Leave it to the community) The good old MS in action.
      - arcturus17 6y ago
        It remains to be seen whether they will find this economical when they are not making any direct revenue on the product. I understand that VSCode is part of a grand strategic plan that goes beyond revenue, but I seriously doubt that they'd be willing to internally maintain the absolute truckload of code that would ensue from getting to feature parity with Jetbrains on languages like Java or Python. I'd wager at some point the quality would derail, or someone would pull the plug altogether on such a cost sink. And that's one of the things I love about Jetbrains products. I'm actually delighted to pay for a product that I use every day for ~8 hours and which I think is extremely well-designed, knowing that the money is going to a company of craftsmen who do that, and only that.
- happymellon 6y ago
  Could not be further from the truth. Even with rope installed, VSCode won't always allow me to rename a variable and just silently fails.
  - dmitryminkovsky 6y ago
    Python is not a strongly typed language and renaming variables in such a language is a minefield. I've used PyCharm and WebStorm and never felt comfortable using their variable rename facilities for Python and Javascript. If they do it better than rope then that's good, but you need to write those languages in a very specific if you want IDE renamings to succeed. IMO, that rope fails silently might be viewed as more of a feature than a bug :). Anyway, I'm sure it will be improved.
    - happymellon 6y ago
      Python might not be strongly typed, but VS Code appears to be able to rename variables in JS quite well, and PyCharm has never failed me. VS Code fails me for anything that isn't JS/TS in the worst way.
Wintereise 6y ago
My experience is the opposite with VSCode and TS, actually. It becomes obvious that Jetbrains understands MSFT's own language (TS) better than VSCode the moment you actually need real IDE-like features (such as refactors) to work.

arcturus17 6y ago

I think VSCode is really good, but even when I was only writing JS I ended up preferring WebStorm. I like its refactoring tools and command palette better, and I also prefer its "batteries-included" rather than "plugin-first" approach (although I do have a few plugins on JetBrains products always, such as Vim, there are significantly fewer than in VSCode) Anecdotally, I know other devs in the same situation. You wouldn't pry WebStorm from their cold dead hands, even with an excellent free offering like VSCode. But I also know some who don't understand why you would pay for WebStorm when VSCode is free, which is reasonable (though if they took WS for a spin, they might change their minds). Now that I write mostly Python and JS there is no contest at all. I get all the JS/TS goodies, plus absolutely amazing Python features. Like GP is saying, I don't think JetBrains and VSCode even compete that much. Maybe VSCode will capture a good part of the JS world - which is huge of course - but I think WebStorm will maintain a decent foothold there no matter what, and I think JetBrains will remain very strong in other languages.

luxuryballs 6y ago

I feel like we are kind of ignoring how Visual Studio plays into this, do we really expect Microsoft to replace it with VS Code? I feel like Visual Studio Pro/Ent is more of a competition with other paid IDEs and VS Code won’t be, perhaps somewhat so it isn’t positioned to eat Visual Studio?