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But what purpose does that antagonism serve? I fundamentally reject the way linus treats people, and I think him hiding behind his maintainer position is even m

But what purpose does that antagonism serve? I fundamentally reject the way linus treats people, and I think him hiding behind his maintainer position is even more petty. A lord of his kingdom, rude and sarcastic to everyone who comes and visits. I will never accept someone as hostile as he is in my workplace, and I think the only way he gets away with it, is by surrounding himself with other people who express themselves just as indecorously as himself. What a shame.

andrewzah 6y ago
Reminder that Linus is part of the reason you and I have a job in the first place. How many people contribute to the linux kernel? Let’s see how quickly you get jaded after dealing with people refusing to read basic instructions. Also, reminder that not every contributor is desirable. Linus has a specific vision and criteria for his project. It’s true he could use kinder language, but I imagine he gets fed up having to deal with this sort of stuff over -decades-.
- phist_mcgee 6y ago
  Jaded is not an excuse for abuse. That's like a parent saying that their children's bad behaviour is an excuse to abuse them. It is not ok to treat people that way, and no amount of being fed up justifies it. Also I do not accept the idea that my job exists because of him, so I have to have deference. Again, this is an abusive way to look at things, and puts people on pedestals that they deserve respect, but we do not deserve it in turn.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    I said part of the reason, not the sole reason. His projects have had immeasurable impact on computing, and it’s arrogant to dismiss that because you don’t like how he conducts himself. He can definitely do better regarding his language, that I agree with. But this specific instance isn’t even against the contributor but against GitHub. “they deserve respect, but we do not deserve it in turn” Nobody deserves respect. You may be referring to basic decency towards each other. He earned respect with his work and maintainership over the years and decades. Abusive language towards contributors is not appropriate, but that doesn’t mean they -deserve- respect either. The first step to becoming respected is learning to RTFM and submit patches according to how a project expects them. And for basically every rant of his I’ve seen, it was directed at someone who 100% should’ve known better, not random new submitters.
    - phist_mcgee 6y ago
      You are 100% perpetuating the culture of 'deserved abuse' that I spoke about. People DO deserve respect. Everyone does, and I will assume someone is a good person until proven otherwise. People like yourself and linus create toxic communities of insular looking people hurling insults outward to people looking, and feel justified in their behaviour because they have trod the golden path to 'earning the right to not be belittled'.
      - andrewzah 6y ago
        No, people deserve common decency. Respect is earned. I think we're going to disagree on terminology here. I do not think every person is automatically worthy of respect, until proven otherwise. Linus has already apologized for his past outbursts, and I do not condone abusive language to people.
- paulmd 6y ago
  > Reminder that Linus is part of the reason you and I have a job in the first place. yikes, operating systems existed before linus.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    Imagine reducing the impact of linux/git/etc to merely an operating system.
    - ben0x539 6y ago
      Don't you think we'd largely have palette-swapped jobs doing basically the same thing on some BSD derivative instead?
      - andrewzah 6y ago
        Maybe, maybe not. There are infinite hypothetical realities, so I do not find it productive to muse on them. The reality is such that Linus wrote Linux, people adopted it, and here we are.
- ben0x539 6y ago
  Getting jaded is a good excuse for taking a step back and reevaluating your life choices, and maybe finding another hobby. It's not a good excuse for going out of your way to hurt the feelings of people who aren't measuring up to your standards.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    I don’t disagree that Linus has gone way overboard when chewing people out. The language in some of his rants is completely inappropriate, and he has since apologized for that. But if someone who 100% knew better did something they shouldn’t have, sometimes getting chewed out is appropriate. “maybe finding another hobby” It’s very easy to sit here in our armchairs and go “yeah he should just abandon his project”. I’m not sure how any of us would react to one of our projects growing to the scale linux has, but blithely suggesting one should just swap careers or hobbies (since programming is -just- a hobby apparently) is not productive at all.
    - ben0x539 6y ago
      We're talking about the point where someone has become jaded enough that they can't help themselves from lashing out at well-intentioned strangers. That's a fairly advanced level of jaded. I definitely consider myself jaded but I probably have a long way to go before I get there. I'm not saying you have to retrain into a different career path, but I think at that point it's not unreasonable to reflect on whether what you're doing with your spare time is really making you happy, and whether you wouldn't be better off for purely selfish reason if you gave up on project management and idk wrote some scuba software. > But if someone who 100% knew better did something they shouldn’t have, sometimes getting chewed out is appropriate. I don't think this is unqualifiedly the case, and I very much don't think this is the case in a situation where a hapless stranger's transgressions only go as far as wasting five minutes of your time by making an unacceptable pull request.
      - andrewzah 6y ago
        "whether you wouldn't be better off for purely selfish reason if you gave up on project management and idk wrote some scuba software" It's selfish to assume that because you might be happy doing that, then all people should do that. Maybe he wants to work on Linux? Nobody is forced to contribute to or work on his project.
fermienrico 6y ago
> But what purpose does that antagonism serve? It's a good question. I am not advocating this behavior, just trying to circumvent his rants and see them as comedy. Of course, the better choice is to not do this in the first place.

andrewzah 6y ago

Reminder that Linus is part of the reason you and I have a job in the first place. How many people contribute to the linux kernel? Let’s see how quickly you get jaded after dealing with people refusing to read basic instructions. Also, reminder that not every contributor is desirable. Linus has a specific vision and criteria for his project. It’s true he could use kinder language, but I imagine he gets fed up having to deal with this sort of stuff over -decades-.

phist_mcgee 6y ago
Jaded is not an excuse for abuse. That's like a parent saying that their children's bad behaviour is an excuse to abuse them. It is not ok to treat people that way, and no amount of being fed up justifies it. Also I do not accept the idea that my job exists because of him, so I have to have deference. Again, this is an abusive way to look at things, and puts people on pedestals that they deserve respect, but we do not deserve it in turn.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  I said part of the reason, not the sole reason. His projects have had immeasurable impact on computing, and it’s arrogant to dismiss that because you don’t like how he conducts himself. He can definitely do better regarding his language, that I agree with. But this specific instance isn’t even against the contributor but against GitHub. “they deserve respect, but we do not deserve it in turn” Nobody deserves respect. You may be referring to basic decency towards each other. He earned respect with his work and maintainership over the years and decades. Abusive language towards contributors is not appropriate, but that doesn’t mean they -deserve- respect either. The first step to becoming respected is learning to RTFM and submit patches according to how a project expects them. And for basically every rant of his I’ve seen, it was directed at someone who 100% should’ve known better, not random new submitters.
  - phist_mcgee 6y ago
    You are 100% perpetuating the culture of 'deserved abuse' that I spoke about. People DO deserve respect. Everyone does, and I will assume someone is a good person until proven otherwise. People like yourself and linus create toxic communities of insular looking people hurling insults outward to people looking, and feel justified in their behaviour because they have trod the golden path to 'earning the right to not be belittled'.
    - andrewzah 6y ago
      No, people deserve common decency. Respect is earned. I think we're going to disagree on terminology here. I do not think every person is automatically worthy of respect, until proven otherwise. Linus has already apologized for his past outbursts, and I do not condone abusive language to people.
paulmd 6y ago
> Reminder that Linus is part of the reason you and I have a job in the first place. yikes, operating systems existed before linus.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  Imagine reducing the impact of linux/git/etc to merely an operating system.
  - ben0x539 6y ago
    Don't you think we'd largely have palette-swapped jobs doing basically the same thing on some BSD derivative instead?
    - andrewzah 6y ago
      Maybe, maybe not. There are infinite hypothetical realities, so I do not find it productive to muse on them. The reality is such that Linus wrote Linux, people adopted it, and here we are.
ben0x539 6y ago
Getting jaded is a good excuse for taking a step back and reevaluating your life choices, and maybe finding another hobby. It's not a good excuse for going out of your way to hurt the feelings of people who aren't measuring up to your standards.
- andrewzah 6y ago
  I don’t disagree that Linus has gone way overboard when chewing people out. The language in some of his rants is completely inappropriate, and he has since apologized for that. But if someone who 100% knew better did something they shouldn’t have, sometimes getting chewed out is appropriate. “maybe finding another hobby” It’s very easy to sit here in our armchairs and go “yeah he should just abandon his project”. I’m not sure how any of us would react to one of our projects growing to the scale linux has, but blithely suggesting one should just swap careers or hobbies (since programming is -just- a hobby apparently) is not productive at all.
  - ben0x539 6y ago
    We're talking about the point where someone has become jaded enough that they can't help themselves from lashing out at well-intentioned strangers. That's a fairly advanced level of jaded. I definitely consider myself jaded but I probably have a long way to go before I get there. I'm not saying you have to retrain into a different career path, but I think at that point it's not unreasonable to reflect on whether what you're doing with your spare time is really making you happy, and whether you wouldn't be better off for purely selfish reason if you gave up on project management and idk wrote some scuba software. > But if someone who 100% knew better did something they shouldn’t have, sometimes getting chewed out is appropriate. I don't think this is unqualifiedly the case, and I very much don't think this is the case in a situation where a hapless stranger's transgressions only go as far as wasting five minutes of your time by making an unacceptable pull request.
    - andrewzah 6y ago
      "whether you wouldn't be better off for purely selfish reason if you gave up on project management and idk wrote some scuba software" It's selfish to assume that because you might be happy doing that, then all people should do that. Maybe he wants to work on Linux? Nobody is forced to contribute to or work on his project.

fermienrico 6y ago

> But what purpose does that antagonism serve? It's a good question. I am not advocating this behavior, just trying to circumvent his rants and see them as comedy. Of course, the better choice is to not do this in the first place.