4 ms·

I think at this point we're just waiting for Windows and Linux to be fully supported on the M1 or for ARM to come out with a system on a chip that's documented

I think at this point we're just waiting for Windows and Linux to be fully supported on the M1 or for ARM to come out with a system on a chip that's documented enough for Windows and Linux to make a port.

martinald 6y ago
There already are other SoCs for ARM based PCs. Qualcomm has the 8cx "Gen 2" chip, but it performs really badly compared to M1 (https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-qualcomm_snapdragon_8cx_gen._2-1849-vs-apple_m1-1804 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-qualcomm_snapdrago...). Considering how little fab capacity there is for new designs right now (and Apple has probably booked it all out for months/years to come), I can't see this situation changing much. AMD is the closest but they also have insane supply shortages right now.
kcb 6y ago
Or just buy AMD.
kllrnohj 6y ago
Why would you wait for that when you can have a faster CPU in the form of the 5800X today? The M1 is a phenomenal laptop CPU, but it's still not faster than AMD's desktop offerings, either. At least not according to the specint results in the article.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  The M1 is much faster on some single-threaded workloads than any other CPU. For example on browser benchmarks M1 is a whopping 60% faster than the 2nd place processor. Browser is an important workload for most people. If you want to run MS Windows then obviously I can't recommend it.
  - StillBored 6y ago
    Yah, the M1 is a single threaded beast, but its too power constrained (and apparently not as efficient in a number of cases) to keep up with AMD's less power constrained laptop cores in throughput tests. I think this could be a fine battle with a strong apple lead at least until amd releases a 5nm design, but i'm afraid that apple, will be apple and keep doing thin/light/constrained devices, with maybe a super expensive mac pro that can't be justified by anyone who doesn't burn cash in their grill.
nxc18 6y ago
Windows on ARM is already working on M1 Mac through parallels. The big issue now is licensing and I assume some niceties in terms of official drivers/fine-tuning support. According to recent videos, Windows in a VM on M1 Mac today has same or better performance than Windows on ARM running natively on Surface Pro X. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/22/m1-mac-windows-parallels-16/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/22/m1-mac-windows-parallel... https://twitter.com/imbushuo/status/1332484912549687297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/imbushuo/status/1332484912549687297?ref_...
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Licensing isn't an issue: a standard Windows 10 Pro license is processor-independent and includes a single-seat virtualization license. If Apple allowed it, you could even use the same license for virtualization and BootCamp like you can on amd64 macs.
  - temac 6y ago
    I'm not sure ARM images are available, except for big OEMs. Also IIRC the boot is not restricted to Apple software (or at least can be unlocked), so I'm not sure that Apple is actually disallowing anything. Getting native drivers is another issue...
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Here's a download link to the image: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsinsiderpreviewARM64 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsins... If someone wants to try it on an m1 Mac, I'd be interested where it fails.
- philistine 6y ago
  Considering the benchmarks of Qualcomm's Kryo 495, it's not surprising. Apple is way ahead of them in every regard.
userbinator 6y ago
or for ARM to come out with a system on a chip that's documented enough for Windows and Linux to make a port Linux (i.e. Android) already has been ported to countless ARM SoCs, the problem being that all of these SoCs are subtly different even if they're well-documented.
- temac 6y ago
  Around x64 cpus you have plenty of peripherals that are subtly different too. Arguably the situation is "worse" for ARM, but it is getting worse every year on the x64 front too, esp since MS decided to release extremely short lived OSes quite fast, without really any fixed HW support policies. In the end I've recently had built-in ethernet on a recent Intel not recognized by a few years old Linux distro, so at the end of the day it does not matter much if you can't use a computer because of an essential "peripheral" or because of an interrupt controller; and if you have recent enough software it will be supported in both cases.
qbasic_forever 6y ago
You can buy a couple different Qualcomm-based Windows ARM laptops today, like the Surface Pro X. There's even a ~5 year old Asus (or maybe Acer) laptop using a Snapdragon processor that you can find for dirt cheap on ebay. ARM is not the gatekeeper or reason why windows on ARM is lagging--the ARM ISA is fully documented and available to license holders (of which Microsoft is certainly one). Microsoft is the reason windows on ARM is a bit of a hot mess. They let the windows ARM platform languish for years and are scrambling like mad to catch up now (both in the Azure server space, and in the consumer space).
jcelerier 6y ago
> for ARM to come out with a system on a chip that's documented enough for Windows and Linux to make a port. glances at the pile of ARM boards on his desk don't care about windows but... linux ? ... you know that 99% of android devices are linux and run arm, right ? and that debian has been available for arm, for, what, 2.5 decades ? what do you think raspberry pi's run ?

martinald 6y ago

There already are other SoCs for ARM based PCs. Qualcomm has the 8cx "Gen 2" chip, but it performs really badly compared to M1 (https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-qualcomm_snapdragon_8cx_gen._2-1849-vs-apple_m1-1804 https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-qualcomm_snapdrago...). Considering how little fab capacity there is for new designs right now (and Apple has probably booked it all out for months/years to come), I can't see this situation changing much. AMD is the closest but they also have insane supply shortages right now.

kcb 6y ago

Or just buy AMD.

kllrnohj 6y ago

Why would you wait for that when you can have a faster CPU in the form of the 5800X today? The M1 is a phenomenal laptop CPU, but it's still not faster than AMD's desktop offerings, either. At least not according to the specint results in the article.

jeffbee 6y ago
The M1 is much faster on some single-threaded workloads than any other CPU. For example on browser benchmarks M1 is a whopping 60% faster than the 2nd place processor. Browser is an important workload for most people. If you want to run MS Windows then obviously I can't recommend it.
- StillBored 6y ago
  Yah, the M1 is a single threaded beast, but its too power constrained (and apparently not as efficient in a number of cases) to keep up with AMD's less power constrained laptop cores in throughput tests. I think this could be a fine battle with a strong apple lead at least until amd releases a 5nm design, but i'm afraid that apple, will be apple and keep doing thin/light/constrained devices, with maybe a super expensive mac pro that can't be justified by anyone who doesn't burn cash in their grill.

nxc18 6y ago

Windows on ARM is already working on M1 Mac through parallels. The big issue now is licensing and I assume some niceties in terms of official drivers/fine-tuning support. According to recent videos, Windows in a VM on M1 Mac today has same or better performance than Windows on ARM running natively on Surface Pro X. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/22/m1-mac-windows-parallels-16/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/22/m1-mac-windows-parallel... https://twitter.com/imbushuo/status/1332484912549687297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/imbushuo/status/1332484912549687297?ref_...

freeone3000 6y ago
Licensing isn't an issue: a standard Windows 10 Pro license is processor-independent and includes a single-seat virtualization license. If Apple allowed it, you could even use the same license for virtualization and BootCamp like you can on amd64 macs.
- temac 6y ago
  I'm not sure ARM images are available, except for big OEMs. Also IIRC the boot is not restricted to Apple software (or at least can be unlocked), so I'm not sure that Apple is actually disallowing anything. Getting native drivers is another issue...
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Here's a download link to the image: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsinsiderpreviewARM64 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windowsins... If someone wants to try it on an m1 Mac, I'd be interested where it fails.
philistine 6y ago
Considering the benchmarks of Qualcomm's Kryo 495, it's not surprising. Apple is way ahead of them in every regard.

userbinator 6y ago

or for ARM to come out with a system on a chip that's documented enough for Windows and Linux to make a port Linux (i.e. Android) already has been ported to countless ARM SoCs, the problem being that all of these SoCs are subtly different even if they're well-documented.

temac 6y ago
Around x64 cpus you have plenty of peripherals that are subtly different too. Arguably the situation is "worse" for ARM, but it is getting worse every year on the x64 front too, esp since MS decided to release extremely short lived OSes quite fast, without really any fixed HW support policies. In the end I've recently had built-in ethernet on a recent Intel not recognized by a few years old Linux distro, so at the end of the day it does not matter much if you can't use a computer because of an essential "peripheral" or because of an interrupt controller; and if you have recent enough software it will be supported in both cases.

qbasic_forever 6y ago

You can buy a couple different Qualcomm-based Windows ARM laptops today, like the Surface Pro X. There's even a ~5 year old Asus (or maybe Acer) laptop using a Snapdragon processor that you can find for dirt cheap on ebay. ARM is not the gatekeeper or reason why windows on ARM is lagging--the ARM ISA is fully documented and available to license holders (of which Microsoft is certainly one). Microsoft is the reason windows on ARM is a bit of a hot mess. They let the windows ARM platform languish for years and are scrambling like mad to catch up now (both in the Azure server space, and in the consumer space).

jcelerier 6y ago

> for ARM to come out with a system on a chip that's documented enough for Windows and Linux to make a port. glances at the pile of ARM boards on his desk don't care about windows but... linux ? ... you know that 99% of android devices are linux and run arm, right ? and that debian has been available for arm, for, what, 2.5 decades ? what do you think raspberry pi's run ?