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Also this. https://fullfact.org/online/queen-nazi-salute/ https://fullfact.org/online/queen-nazi-salute/ Which is one of the reasons Hitler expected Germany a

Also this. https://fullfact.org/online/queen-nazi-salute/ https://fullfact.org/online/queen-nazi-salute/ Which is one of the reasons Hitler expected Germany and the UK to come to an accommodation. And why he was surprised - even blindsided - when the UK decided to declare war instead. One debatable defence is that this was still pre-Holocaust, and outright anti-Semitism hadn't yet devolved into mechanised mass murder and enslaved brutalisation. So it was possible with some moral gymnastics to justify the Nazis as better than the Bolsheviks, who were considered a far more immediate threat to the British ruling class. Even so. There's no question there was always an undercurrent of support in high places. And in fact the British mythology of Churchillian resistance is at least as much about a nationalist myth of pushback against Germany as a virile and potent competing empire as about fighting the immoral horrors of Nazi fascism and genocide.

throwaway8581 6y ago
The war was never at any point about fighting anti-semitism or stopping the Holocaust. Even if the full extent of the campaign to the exterminate the Jews was known, it’s questionable that it would have been sufficient to drive the western powers to war. 75 million people were killed in the war, many times what the Holocaust could have killed even if the war didn’t interrupt it. The Axis powers started a campaign of world domination and the countries not in the club were not very happy about that. For one, they foresaw being next to be conquered. And no one wants to be reduced to servitude to a much greater power. That is why the war was fought.
- Guthur 6y ago
  The world domination line fits for a Saturday cartoon but is far too reductive for real world geo politics. I don't think Germany was any more into world domination than Britain and France with their extensive world empires. Germany lacked secure access to strategic resources and they knew it. Their policies of autarky reinforced this view. The Nazi leadership also appeared to believe there would be an inevitable conflict between what they saw as Jewish led Bolshevism and the world.
- croes 6y ago
  Never wondered why Germany had a pretty large jewish community? Anti-semitism was/is quite common in Europe. But Germany had the reputation of being a refuge for the outcasts.
  - airhead969 6y ago
    Isn't it now migrants who almost displaced gypsies as the most convenient and socially more acceptable European scapegoat outcasts?
- airhead969 6y ago
  What's curious is the Axis powers seemed to correlate strongly with countries that would eventually reach peak population sooner than others.
robin21 6y ago
> is at least as much about a nationalist myth of pushback against Germany as a virile and potent competing empire as about fighting the immoral horrors... Primary sources are the best for these kinds of questions. “The truth about hitler” (1935) by Churchill provides a good summary of his thinking well before the war broke out. Everything about Germany at the time was alarming. It’s baffling how no one took it seriously. A militarized dictatorship is a clear threat of another war - which is exactly what happened. Compared to democracies, there is infinitely more danger as an aggressor in conflict. The decision comes down to one man and opposition is silenced. He also mentions the anti-Semitic views which were already clear in Mein Kampf to everyone. This was not the primary reason of course as peace and security in Europe was always paramount, but if Germany wanted to be anti-Semitic itself all the Jews could leave instead of being hunted down over Europe by a single invading nation and left nowhere to hide which would have left options rather than war. All in all the idea of “pushback against a competing empire” doesn’t seem to play in my reading of things at all. https://archive.org/stream/W.S.ChurchillTheTruthAboutHitler193538/W.S.Churchill%20-%20The%20Truth%20About%20Hitler%201935-38_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/W.S.ChurchillTheTruthAboutHitler1...
klelatti 6y ago
There is absolutely no awareness of these issues in the UK but that photo was on the front page of the most widely read newspaper five years ago. There are many things wrong with the UK's view of its own history but the major problem with its understanding of the war is its self image as a plucky underdog. It is absolutely not about a "nationalist myth of pushback against Germany as a virile and potent competing empire". If anything Britain has been at fault for forgetting about its Empire and the moral problems that came with that.

throwaway8581 6y ago

The war was never at any point about fighting anti-semitism or stopping the Holocaust. Even if the full extent of the campaign to the exterminate the Jews was known, it’s questionable that it would have been sufficient to drive the western powers to war. 75 million people were killed in the war, many times what the Holocaust could have killed even if the war didn’t interrupt it. The Axis powers started a campaign of world domination and the countries not in the club were not very happy about that. For one, they foresaw being next to be conquered. And no one wants to be reduced to servitude to a much greater power. That is why the war was fought.

Guthur 6y ago
The world domination line fits for a Saturday cartoon but is far too reductive for real world geo politics. I don't think Germany was any more into world domination than Britain and France with their extensive world empires. Germany lacked secure access to strategic resources and they knew it. Their policies of autarky reinforced this view. The Nazi leadership also appeared to believe there would be an inevitable conflict between what they saw as Jewish led Bolshevism and the world.
croes 6y ago
Never wondered why Germany had a pretty large jewish community? Anti-semitism was/is quite common in Europe. But Germany had the reputation of being a refuge for the outcasts.
- airhead969 6y ago
  Isn't it now migrants who almost displaced gypsies as the most convenient and socially more acceptable European scapegoat outcasts?
airhead969 6y ago
What's curious is the Axis powers seemed to correlate strongly with countries that would eventually reach peak population sooner than others.

robin21 6y ago

> is at least as much about a nationalist myth of pushback against Germany as a virile and potent competing empire as about fighting the immoral horrors... Primary sources are the best for these kinds of questions. “The truth about hitler” (1935) by Churchill provides a good summary of his thinking well before the war broke out. Everything about Germany at the time was alarming. It’s baffling how no one took it seriously. A militarized dictatorship is a clear threat of another war - which is exactly what happened. Compared to democracies, there is infinitely more danger as an aggressor in conflict. The decision comes down to one man and opposition is silenced. He also mentions the anti-Semitic views which were already clear in Mein Kampf to everyone. This was not the primary reason of course as peace and security in Europe was always paramount, but if Germany wanted to be anti-Semitic itself all the Jews could leave instead of being hunted down over Europe by a single invading nation and left nowhere to hide which would have left options rather than war. All in all the idea of “pushback against a competing empire” doesn’t seem to play in my reading of things at all. https://archive.org/stream/W.S.ChurchillTheTruthAboutHitler193538/W.S.Churchill%20-%20The%20Truth%20About%20Hitler%201935-38_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/W.S.ChurchillTheTruthAboutHitler1...

klelatti 6y ago

There is absolutely no awareness of these issues in the UK but that photo was on the front page of the most widely read newspaper five years ago. There are many things wrong with the UK's view of its own history but the major problem with its understanding of the war is its self image as a plucky underdog. It is absolutely not about a "nationalist myth of pushback against Germany as a virile and potent competing empire". If anything Britain has been at fault for forgetting about its Empire and the moral problems that came with that.