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The difference seems to be that you place more value on what the group has decided versus what an individual may have wanted. That is the definition of tyranny.

The difference seems to be that you place more value on what the group has decided versus what an individual may have wanted. That is the definition of tyranny. You and your gang of neighbors would be telling other property owners what they can and can't do with their property. There's 'no principal involved, just that there are more of you. I side with the individual unless there is a really good reason not to. I'm even offended that you and your neighbors are not just making decisions that apply to you and your neighbors, but also apply to future generations. Do you have any opinion on the way the Japanese regulate zoning?

toss1 6y ago
I'm not sure equating local democracy to tyranny is a sound argument. We all, from the locale to the nation, get to collectively decide the rules under which we live. Or, we can fail to decide, and have it decided by whichever warlords come out on top this season. Taking your individual liberty argument to it's end, it would be perfectly OK for me to build, one inch from your property line, a factory or party hall just under the legal limits of loudness, smelliness, and traffic. According to you, I could say "Hey, it's my property, pss-off!" (remember, your wish to end zoning). I've literally watched people in a town that formerly had zoning, then voted it out, then had bad sht happen... and I watched them in real time have the realization that "oh, this sh*t wouldn't have happened if we still had those zoning laws, huh?". Then they vote zoning back in. No intelligent individual buys zoned property intending to break zoning without knowing it is a gamble to get the variance or vote to change the rules. It is a group of people who each individually decide to put their own resources into building their individual properties, and the town properties, as they best see fit for their purposes. And it is not like zoning laws are static inherited burdens - they are updated continuously, 2x per year in many towns. We have individually and democratically decided to live by these rules, and to invest our money and efforts, both individually and collectively in maintaining that. Your town has made similar types of decisions, but perhaps to different ends. What right do I have to tell your town what to do, and you, mine? (obviously outside of national issues like environmental laws, or collectively going in and buying enough property in your town to get the voting power to change your town's laws)
- mikem170 6y ago
  I'm curious the name of the town you referenced that voted zoning out, if there's more I can read. I found a reference that modern zoning was started by the Germans in the late 1800s [0]. This article also mentions the the basic idea of zoning goes back to antiquity, but just the distinctions between stinky and noisy outside the walls, dangerous and filthy between the walls, and every thing else inside. Also mentioned was the industrial revolution, and the change from people working in their houses to factories, and needing to separate those. Also mentioned was modern single use zoning, which has a lot of criticisms. You mentioned a factory 1" from my property. That is an extreme example! The Japanese zoning laws I referenced, and would welcome, do make a distinction between industrial and residential/commercial, and between high density and low density. They key is they are flexible and allow for growth, they are not micromanaged by incumbent homeowners. Low density includes mixed use, and can grow into higher density over time if more people move to an area. I ask you: What about the ability to build an accessory dwelling unit for grandma on the property you own? Or replacing a single family home with a duplex or triplex? Those aren't nuisance or safety issues, are they? Why are those forbidden in most places? What about introducing small shops and mixed residential/retail properties into residential neighborhoods? How is anything supposed to change for the better if we regulate everything to be frozen in time, with incentive, and keep adding more regulations over time? I believe that increasingly restrictive zoning, against things like the above, are causing a lot of damage to our society. Lots of poeple can't afford a place to live. Folks have to live somewhere. They tend to aggregate in cities where the jobs are. Lots of people are stuck with long commutes. So many modern neighborhoods are absolutely soulless, without places to gather, places to walk, and variety. People are neatly divided by income level and race, into bubbles that misunderstand and demonize each other, spending way too much time in cars. Just because 51% of people vote on something doesn't mean it's not a tyranny. That's why they have the phrase "tyranny of the majority". There's principals involved, or there should be. Otherwise it would be ok for the majority to ignore and screw over the minority any time they want. And I think that is happening in this case. It's gone too far. Homeowners have theirs and are artificially restricting the supply of housing. They care more about their property values than they do about other people. I assume there's middle ground to discuss, about things like noise and pets, anticipating growth, allowing variety, what comes after car culture, how to explore alternatives, etc. But justifying the current regulatory regime based on a majority vote, when so many other people are negatively impacted, just makes me sad for what democracy has come to mean in this country. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning

toss1 6y ago

I'm not sure equating local democracy to tyranny is a sound argument. We all, from the locale to the nation, get to collectively decide the rules under which we live. Or, we can fail to decide, and have it decided by whichever warlords come out on top this season. Taking your individual liberty argument to it's end, it would be perfectly OK for me to build, one inch from your property line, a factory or party hall just under the legal limits of loudness, smelliness, and traffic. According to you, I could say "Hey, it's my property, pss-off!" (remember, your wish to end zoning). I've literally watched people in a town that formerly had zoning, then voted it out, then had bad sht happen... and I watched them in real time have the realization that "oh, this sh*t wouldn't have happened if we still had those zoning laws, huh?". Then they vote zoning back in. No intelligent individual buys zoned property intending to break zoning without knowing it is a gamble to get the variance or vote to change the rules. It is a group of people who each individually decide to put their own resources into building their individual properties, and the town properties, as they best see fit for their purposes. And it is not like zoning laws are static inherited burdens - they are updated continuously, 2x per year in many towns. We have individually and democratically decided to live by these rules, and to invest our money and efforts, both individually and collectively in maintaining that. Your town has made similar types of decisions, but perhaps to different ends. What right do I have to tell your town what to do, and you, mine? (obviously outside of national issues like environmental laws, or collectively going in and buying enough property in your town to get the voting power to change your town's laws)

mikem170 6y ago
I'm curious the name of the town you referenced that voted zoning out, if there's more I can read. I found a reference that modern zoning was started by the Germans in the late 1800s [0]. This article also mentions the the basic idea of zoning goes back to antiquity, but just the distinctions between stinky and noisy outside the walls, dangerous and filthy between the walls, and every thing else inside. Also mentioned was the industrial revolution, and the change from people working in their houses to factories, and needing to separate those. Also mentioned was modern single use zoning, which has a lot of criticisms. You mentioned a factory 1" from my property. That is an extreme example! The Japanese zoning laws I referenced, and would welcome, do make a distinction between industrial and residential/commercial, and between high density and low density. They key is they are flexible and allow for growth, they are not micromanaged by incumbent homeowners. Low density includes mixed use, and can grow into higher density over time if more people move to an area. I ask you: What about the ability to build an accessory dwelling unit for grandma on the property you own? Or replacing a single family home with a duplex or triplex? Those aren't nuisance or safety issues, are they? Why are those forbidden in most places? What about introducing small shops and mixed residential/retail properties into residential neighborhoods? How is anything supposed to change for the better if we regulate everything to be frozen in time, with incentive, and keep adding more regulations over time? I believe that increasingly restrictive zoning, against things like the above, are causing a lot of damage to our society. Lots of poeple can't afford a place to live. Folks have to live somewhere. They tend to aggregate in cities where the jobs are. Lots of people are stuck with long commutes. So many modern neighborhoods are absolutely soulless, without places to gather, places to walk, and variety. People are neatly divided by income level and race, into bubbles that misunderstand and demonize each other, spending way too much time in cars. Just because 51% of people vote on something doesn't mean it's not a tyranny. That's why they have the phrase "tyranny of the majority". There's principals involved, or there should be. Otherwise it would be ok for the majority to ignore and screw over the minority any time they want. And I think that is happening in this case. It's gone too far. Homeowners have theirs and are artificially restricting the supply of housing. They care more about their property values than they do about other people. I assume there's middle ground to discuss, about things like noise and pets, anticipating growth, allowing variety, what comes after car culture, how to explore alternatives, etc. But justifying the current regulatory regime based on a majority vote, when so many other people are negatively impacted, just makes me sad for what democracy has come to mean in this country. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning