4 ms·

It's the system's fault. It's society's fault. It's the school board's fault. It's the school's fault. It's the teacher's fault. Who else's fault is it?

richwater 6y ago
Everyone but the parents
- umvi 6y ago
  I think the argument is yes it's the parents' fault. But that's not something we can directly fix. We can directly fix school budgets and stuff so that's what gets the blame. How do you fix broken families from a government perspective?
  - lurquer 6y ago
    Abolish divorce, criminalize adultery, castrate men who knock up women out of wedlock... Something less drastic? How about this.. Look at this thread. You’ll read all kinds of excuses for and blame of the mother. Yet nobody mentioned the father. A father — under our system — faces no penalty for neglecting a child. None. In a custody order where the mother has primary, the father has NO OBLIgATION to see the kid. This is so engrained in our culture that, like I said, the thread doesn’t even mention a father...
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Harsh but true. The social damage caused by normalizing the notion that fathers don’t need to raise their kids is truly monumental.
      - nate_meurer 6y ago
        Some would say it's the single biggest problem. A big chicken and egg problem-- fathers abandon boys who then expect to abandon their own kids, and girls who expect to be abandoned by the fathers of their own children. Can't really have a healthy human culture with that going on.
    - umvi 6y ago
      Yeah, it's messed up, I agree. Not sure how you can force the father to help, especially if the father is also a teen. Maybe flip a coin at the child's birth, heads the mother is 100% responsible, tails the father is 100% responsible. Maybe then we would have an equal number of single fathers raising kids as single mothers.
      - lurquer 6y ago
        You don't need to 'force the father to help' if the law deters illgitmate children in the first place. In my line of work, I know of men who have upwards of a dozen children from just as many women. There is nothing in the law that deters this activity. Nothing. There used to be. And, when there was, it didn't happen. Penises and Vaginas, orgasms and lust, haven't changed one iota in the past 10,000 years. I have little patience for those who wring their hands, fretting about how to stop this insanity. We know exactly how to stop it. You can open any legal code older than 100 years and see exactly how it is stopped. The fact is, this society has made the deliberate and intentional decision to eradicate any responsibility on the part of men, leaving women absolutely fucked (and the daughters of these women even more screwed.) Ironcially, it was all done in the name of feminism.
        roninhacker 6y ago
        Er...what was there in the law?
        woofie11 6y ago
        Well: * The law treated illegitimate children as illegitimate. It was harsh to be born out of wedlock. (https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/inheritance-rights-for-legitimate-and-illegitimate-children-47186 https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/inheritance-rights-for-leg...). No child support. No inheritance. Etc. * Until recently, there was no no-fault divorce. You couldn't up-and-leave a marriage without good cause. If your husband was beating you or your wife committed adultery, that was a valid reason. If you got bored, existential ennui, or married for child support in the first place, you were SOL unless the other party agreed. People were expected to make it work. * All sorts of fraud laws around sex and sexual behavior. If we had sex because I promised to marry you, I was expected to marry you. Marriage was viewed as a legal agreement. ... and so on. Most of it had problems, but there were some good ideas in there too. Adapting those to a 21st century framework of equal rights would be challenge, both intellectually and politically. There was a history of perverse, unintended consequences, intertwined changes, etc. and a discussion like this would be a political hot potato. Divorce is also a massive industry and political lobby. It intertwines itself with social justice and feminism, so it's hard to tease out, but a lot of work is actively done to break up families, since lawyers, guardians ad litem, etc. profit. A lot of that hits low-income families, despite low-income divorce happening without bringing this industry in.
    - nate_meurer 6y ago
      That is interesting. In this case, it's quite possible the father is in prison.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    Yah. Because these broken families are going to produce more broken students next generation. The only option is to fix the system somehow.
  - SamPatt 6y ago
    Maybe we shouldn't be expecting the government to solve every problem in society, and the fact that we have this expectation might actually be making the problems worse by not allowing other non-governmental forces to play out?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
brnt 6y ago
The only thing at fault is the cultural need to isolate fault. We've created a society, a system far too complex for such simple attributions. You're only fooling yourself if you blame any one of those parties. A whole system analysis and solution is the only way to make meaningful progress.
why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago
I think we should blame Canada! from South Park movie for those who didn't get the reference, it's scary how relevant it still is

richwater 6y ago

Everyone but the parents

umvi 6y ago
I think the argument is yes it's the parents' fault. But that's not something we can directly fix. We can directly fix school budgets and stuff so that's what gets the blame. How do you fix broken families from a government perspective?
- lurquer 6y ago
  Abolish divorce, criminalize adultery, castrate men who knock up women out of wedlock... Something less drastic? How about this.. Look at this thread. You’ll read all kinds of excuses for and blame of the mother. Yet nobody mentioned the father. A father — under our system — faces no penalty for neglecting a child. None. In a custody order where the mother has primary, the father has NO OBLIgATION to see the kid. This is so engrained in our culture that, like I said, the thread doesn’t even mention a father...
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Harsh but true. The social damage caused by normalizing the notion that fathers don’t need to raise their kids is truly monumental.
    - nate_meurer 6y ago
      Some would say it's the single biggest problem. A big chicken and egg problem-- fathers abandon boys who then expect to abandon their own kids, and girls who expect to be abandoned by the fathers of their own children. Can't really have a healthy human culture with that going on.
  - umvi 6y ago
    Yeah, it's messed up, I agree. Not sure how you can force the father to help, especially if the father is also a teen. Maybe flip a coin at the child's birth, heads the mother is 100% responsible, tails the father is 100% responsible. Maybe then we would have an equal number of single fathers raising kids as single mothers.
    - lurquer 6y ago
      You don't need to 'force the father to help' if the law deters illgitmate children in the first place. In my line of work, I know of men who have upwards of a dozen children from just as many women. There is nothing in the law that deters this activity. Nothing. There used to be. And, when there was, it didn't happen. Penises and Vaginas, orgasms and lust, haven't changed one iota in the past 10,000 years. I have little patience for those who wring their hands, fretting about how to stop this insanity. We know exactly how to stop it. You can open any legal code older than 100 years and see exactly how it is stopped. The fact is, this society has made the deliberate and intentional decision to eradicate any responsibility on the part of men, leaving women absolutely fucked (and the daughters of these women even more screwed.) Ironcially, it was all done in the name of feminism.
      - roninhacker 6y ago
        Er...what was there in the law?
        woofie11 6y ago
        Well: * The law treated illegitimate children as illegitimate. It was harsh to be born out of wedlock. (https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/inheritance-rights-for-legitimate-and-illegitimate-children-47186 https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/inheritance-rights-for-leg...). No child support. No inheritance. Etc. * Until recently, there was no no-fault divorce. You couldn't up-and-leave a marriage without good cause. If your husband was beating you or your wife committed adultery, that was a valid reason. If you got bored, existential ennui, or married for child support in the first place, you were SOL unless the other party agreed. People were expected to make it work. * All sorts of fraud laws around sex and sexual behavior. If we had sex because I promised to marry you, I was expected to marry you. Marriage was viewed as a legal agreement. ... and so on. Most of it had problems, but there were some good ideas in there too. Adapting those to a 21st century framework of equal rights would be challenge, both intellectually and politically. There was a history of perverse, unintended consequences, intertwined changes, etc. and a discussion like this would be a political hot potato. Divorce is also a massive industry and political lobby. It intertwines itself with social justice and feminism, so it's hard to tease out, but a lot of work is actively done to break up families, since lawyers, guardians ad litem, etc. profit. A lot of that hits low-income families, despite low-income divorce happening without bringing this industry in.
  - nate_meurer 6y ago
    That is interesting. In this case, it's quite possible the father is in prison.
- mlyle 6y ago
  Yah. Because these broken families are going to produce more broken students next generation. The only option is to fix the system somehow.
- SamPatt 6y ago
  Maybe we shouldn't be expecting the government to solve every problem in society, and the fact that we have this expectation might actually be making the problems worse by not allowing other non-governmental forces to play out?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

brnt 6y ago

The only thing at fault is the cultural need to isolate fault. We've created a society, a system far too complex for such simple attributions. You're only fooling yourself if you blame any one of those parties. A whole system analysis and solution is the only way to make meaningful progress.

why_Mr_Anderson 6y ago

I think we should blame Canada! from South Park movie for those who didn't get the reference, it's scary how relevant it still is