8 ms·

If the system tries to force compliance, it is invariably attacked for disproportionately penalizing minorities (even if the penalties are proportionate to non-

by edbob 6y ago

If the system tries to force compliance, it is invariably attacked for disproportionately penalizing minorities (even if the penalties are proportionate to non-compliance rates). How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? It seems very logical (however shameful) that the system would optimize for passively allowing students to age out of the system, as letting minority students fail doesn't have anywhere near as much blowback as fining or locking up disadvantaged people for truancy.

HeroOfAges 6y ago
Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. This is one of the unintended consequences of viewing every unequal outcome between ethnic groups as proof of racism.
- civilized 6y ago
  Foreseeable consequences are not unintended. https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/ https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/
rusabd 6y ago
> How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? Focus on actual outcomes would be a good start. I would replace the whole school administration with someone more capable.
- edbob 6y ago
  Fines and jail time are the "actual outcomes" of truancy charges, and are much more immediate than proficiency tests and graduation rates. You simply can't force people to go to school without also punishing some of the parents and students, who are disproportionately in disadvantaged groups.
  - rusabd 6y ago
    In this specific case I didn't any failure of enforcement at all because there weren't any. The school administration just dropped the ball without any explanation and no corrective action against _itself_. I guess tree-jobs-mum doesn't have much time going to school and make sure administration does its job.
    - edbob 6y ago
      We've had years of Obama administration policies specifically designed to prevent enforcement actions against minority students on the grounds of such enforcement being racist. The system is in perfect alignment with the incentives given to it. The problem is that those incentives sometimes lead to outcomes like the case we are discussing. A new administator or new system with the same incentives is likely going to give the same results.
      - rusabd 6y ago
        I can hardly believe that the system designed by intelligent people produces unintended outcomes after all these years.
        edbob 6y ago
        Even the most intelligent person in the world will consistently make false deductions if she starts with false premises. Ideally there is a process of incorporating real-world results and revising one's beliefs, but that process seems to have pretty much shut down in favor of strict political orthodoxy.
        rusabd 6y ago
        Intelligent people correct their actions when they see the results. It is fair to say that there is enough information about "unintended" results by now.
        mechEpleb 6y ago
- mlyle 6y ago
  The big problem is that no one more capable wants to work there. We have a mild teacher shortage across the board (which may become major with reports of as many as 40% of teachers seriously considering leaving the profession this year). And then in turn, inner city schools are worse workplaces... which attract worse peers... You need a hell of a martyr complex to take this on, and even if you have it you won't last. And throwing money at comp won't fix this, either: that's not a great motivator to get the people with the passion to fix this.
  - rusabd 6y ago
    Someone quoted 15k USD spent in Baltimore for each student. That is a lot of money to attract top talent.
    - mlyle 6y ago
      Yup, but money isn't great at motivating people to work hard; a lot of evidence implies it even does the opposite. And a huge chunk of that money is vacuumed up by administration. Inner city school systems are great at grinding up passionate personnel, making them quit or just surrender to do things that look good on paper but don't improve anything.
      - rusabd 6y ago
        Looks you are actually found who needs to be replaced
    - mtVessel 6y ago
      Is it? How do you know? Have you reviewed the budgets? Do you work in education in Baltimore, and thus, have a sense of what an appropriate number would be? I don't know the answers, but I do know this -- it's a hell of a lot less than what gets spent in the NY metro area.
      - todd8 6y ago
        Here is the data. According to the US Census[1], out of the largest 100 US Public School systems Baltimore ranked near the very top in spending per child (5th out of 100). Baltimore spent $15,793 per child. Only New York and Boston spent considerably more. [1] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-system-finances.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-s...
upbeat_general 6y ago
Why does the school system need to fine or lock people up? Sure that’s what would be required to force compliance but I don’t think the issue is that kids don’t want to go to school at all. The parent comment even mentions that they have the option to contact juvenile services but can also provide counseling. That seems like the real answer in probably the vast majority of cases.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  A friend of mine is a public school teacher. They have a standing policy to not report anything to the state for minority students, even violent ones. This is because it shows up on reports and makes the school look bad, school gets accused of racism.
- edbob 6y ago
  > I don’t think the issue is that kids don’t want to go to school at all. This is an incredible assumption. There are probably millions of people (Paul Graham, for one) who would agree with Scott Alexander's "description of experiencing school as tortuous": one such example, "Scott, your description of school-as-hell deeply resonated with me. I can say without exaggeration that my time in the public school system was more miserable to me, and left me with deeper scars and issues, than my time in Iraq."[0]. Most of these complaints about child-prison hell-schools are from people who went to far better schools than the one in the article. I spent ten years in prison, and I have far more hatred for the public school system than I do for the prison system. I agree that counseling could help in many cases, perhaps most, but it's deeply mistaken to say that the vast majority of kids are willing to go to school. There will always be a significant number of kids who simply don't want to go, or would rather spend their days involved in drugs or gangs. Plenty of people think that going to school is "acting white". [0] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-comments-on-cult https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-co...

by edbob 6y ago

HeroOfAges 6y ago

Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. This is one of the unintended consequences of viewing every unequal outcome between ethnic groups as proof of racism.

civilized 6y ago
Foreseeable consequences are not unintended. https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/ https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/

rusabd 6y ago

> How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? Focus on actual outcomes would be a good start. I would replace the whole school administration with someone more capable.

edbob 6y ago
Fines and jail time are the "actual outcomes" of truancy charges, and are much more immediate than proficiency tests and graduation rates. You simply can't force people to go to school without also punishing some of the parents and students, who are disproportionately in disadvantaged groups.
- rusabd 6y ago
  In this specific case I didn't any failure of enforcement at all because there weren't any. The school administration just dropped the ball without any explanation and no corrective action against _itself_. I guess tree-jobs-mum doesn't have much time going to school and make sure administration does its job.
  - edbob 6y ago
    We've had years of Obama administration policies specifically designed to prevent enforcement actions against minority students on the grounds of such enforcement being racist. The system is in perfect alignment with the incentives given to it. The problem is that those incentives sometimes lead to outcomes like the case we are discussing. A new administator or new system with the same incentives is likely going to give the same results.
    - rusabd 6y ago
      I can hardly believe that the system designed by intelligent people produces unintended outcomes after all these years.
      - edbob 6y ago
        Even the most intelligent person in the world will consistently make false deductions if she starts with false premises. Ideally there is a process of incorporating real-world results and revising one's beliefs, but that process seems to have pretty much shut down in favor of strict political orthodoxy.
        rusabd 6y ago
        Intelligent people correct their actions when they see the results. It is fair to say that there is enough information about "unintended" results by now.
      - mechEpleb 6y ago
mlyle 6y ago
The big problem is that no one more capable wants to work there. We have a mild teacher shortage across the board (which may become major with reports of as many as 40% of teachers seriously considering leaving the profession this year). And then in turn, inner city schools are worse workplaces... which attract worse peers... You need a hell of a martyr complex to take this on, and even if you have it you won't last. And throwing money at comp won't fix this, either: that's not a great motivator to get the people with the passion to fix this.
- rusabd 6y ago
  Someone quoted 15k USD spent in Baltimore for each student. That is a lot of money to attract top talent.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    Yup, but money isn't great at motivating people to work hard; a lot of evidence implies it even does the opposite. And a huge chunk of that money is vacuumed up by administration. Inner city school systems are great at grinding up passionate personnel, making them quit or just surrender to do things that look good on paper but don't improve anything.
    - rusabd 6y ago
      Looks you are actually found who needs to be replaced
  - mtVessel 6y ago
    Is it? How do you know? Have you reviewed the budgets? Do you work in education in Baltimore, and thus, have a sense of what an appropriate number would be? I don't know the answers, but I do know this -- it's a hell of a lot less than what gets spent in the NY metro area.
    - todd8 6y ago
      Here is the data. According to the US Census[1], out of the largest 100 US Public School systems Baltimore ranked near the very top in spending per child (5th out of 100). Baltimore spent $15,793 per child. Only New York and Boston spent considerably more. [1] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-system-finances.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/school-s...

upbeat_general 6y ago

Why does the school system need to fine or lock people up? Sure that’s what would be required to force compliance but I don’t think the issue is that kids don’t want to go to school at all. The parent comment even mentions that they have the option to contact juvenile services but can also provide counseling. That seems like the real answer in probably the vast majority of cases.

Consultant32452 6y ago
A friend of mine is a public school teacher. They have a standing policy to not report anything to the state for minority students, even violent ones. This is because it shows up on reports and makes the school look bad, school gets accused of racism.
edbob 6y ago
> I don’t think the issue is that kids don’t want to go to school at all. This is an incredible assumption. There are probably millions of people (Paul Graham, for one) who would agree with Scott Alexander's "description of experiencing school as tortuous": one such example, "Scott, your description of school-as-hell deeply resonated with me. I can say without exaggeration that my time in the public school system was more miserable to me, and left me with deeper scars and issues, than my time in Iraq."[0]. Most of these complaints about child-prison hell-schools are from people who went to far better schools than the one in the article. I spent ten years in prison, and I have far more hatred for the public school system than I do for the prison system. I agree that counseling could help in many cases, perhaps most, but it's deeply mistaken to say that the vast majority of kids are willing to go to school. There will always be a significant number of kids who simply don't want to go, or would rather spend their days involved in drugs or gangs. Plenty of people think that going to school is "acting white". [0] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-comments-on-cult https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-co...