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Have you talked to immigrants much? I was in the English as Second Language class in my somewhat mediocre high school. Lots of immigrant children, no fancy conn

by theamk 6y ago

Have you talked to immigrants much? I was in the English as Second Language class in my somewhat mediocre high school. Lots of immigrant children, no fancy connections and all pretty poor by US standards. And yet some of them ended up in the high quality universities, and likely got a well paying job. Please don't say things like "US currently favor anyone who already has money", as it completely ignores the achievements of first and second generation immigrants. They had no money, only hard work, and while they are not billionaires, many of them are in the middle class, earning more than a median salary.

earthscienceman 6y ago
This is an absurd straw man. Not only have I talked to immigrants, I grew up in an immigrant neighborhood. One of my tasks this week was to write a recommendation letter for a "DREAMER" that was deported to Mexico two years ago at the age of 18, to a country that she has never lived in that speaks a language she doesn't speak. I also grew up in a single parent household that made way below poverty wages. I now have my PhD. "some of my immigrant peers went on to be a success" is not the same as saying "my immigrant peers were provided great opportunities to succeed". If you grow up in a wealthy suburb in the United States 80% of your class will go to college. If you grow up in a wealthy community, nearly 40% of your class will go to an elite university. If you grow up in a poor community, less than 40% will even attend a 2 year community college. [1] Just because I am a success, or an immigrant is a success, doesn't mean we have created an optimal system. I'm not ignoring the achievements of anyone, I'm plainly stating "just because some people manage to survive a poorly constructed system of hierarchies and go on to be successful, doesn't mean we can't do wildly better than we are.". The US favoring anyone who has money is a plain fact, clear as day. Just because someone is successful in spite of that doesn't mean it's not true. For every person that survived the odds with hard work and some luck, there are 5 brilliant people here who don't get that chance. People who are relegated to the lower class because the system didn't give them the opportunity to succeed, and all our lives are worse for it. These people go on to commit crimes to alleviate their socioeconomic problems, or at best generally less productive than they could be. A society should be measured by the opportunities it provides for people to remove themselves from poverty. The United States does a quantifiably miserable job at this, both through education and social welfare. It's simple enough to look at the statistics for upward class mobility and to see that the United States is worse than ever in these regards. And we are the wealthiest country in the world. Something is wrong, and a large part of the problem is the financial, educational, and social incentives provided to the wealthy and the cyclical nature of poverty. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/05/23/feds-release-broader-data-socioeconomic-status-and-college-enrollment-and-completion https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/05/23/feds-release-...
- mythrwy 6y ago
  Some of what you say is likely the case but it should be noted that wealth isn't fixed. It didn't start with some families when time begin and doesn't remain static through the proceeding generations. So there are obviously other factors besides wealth. At the end of the day someone, somewhere, had a need and put in the effort (for good or ill) and obtained wealth. But mostly I'm curious what you would do differently?
- theamk 6y ago
  I agree that education system US is not the best and could definitely improve, and that the situation in poorer cities is broken. But you are saying things like: > Your child doesn't get the opportunity to be the beneficiary of that headline without first being purchased a top rate education at America's best high schools. Does this mean I should say, “hey, earthscienceman only has PhD because his parents has purchased him top rate education in the America’s best high school”?
  - earthscienceman 6y ago
    No. You should say exactly the words I wrote, which is "earthscienceman only has a PhD because he managed to survive a mediocre system through pure grit and determination" My grit and determination is not a metric that shows that the system functions.
heterodoxxed 6y ago
What is the American Dream? The ability to work hard and be rewarded. That dream has a name and it is class/social mobility. That's something we can measure and the US does not come out well in that measurement. There are many countries that are much better for class/social mobility than the US. We may be better than the poor (often exploited third world) country that immigrants come here from, but we are not the best by far. We're not even in the top 20. The World Economic Forum puts us at 27, between Lithuania and Spain. http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/ http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/socia...

by theamk 6y ago

earthscienceman 6y ago

This is an absurd straw man. Not only have I talked to immigrants, I grew up in an immigrant neighborhood. One of my tasks this week was to write a recommendation letter for a "DREAMER" that was deported to Mexico two years ago at the age of 18, to a country that she has never lived in that speaks a language she doesn't speak. I also grew up in a single parent household that made way below poverty wages. I now have my PhD. "some of my immigrant peers went on to be a success" is not the same as saying "my immigrant peers were provided great opportunities to succeed". If you grow up in a wealthy suburb in the United States 80% of your class will go to college. If you grow up in a wealthy community, nearly 40% of your class will go to an elite university. If you grow up in a poor community, less than 40% will even attend a 2 year community college. [1] Just because I am a success, or an immigrant is a success, doesn't mean we have created an optimal system. I'm not ignoring the achievements of anyone, I'm plainly stating "just because some people manage to survive a poorly constructed system of hierarchies and go on to be successful, doesn't mean we can't do wildly better than we are.". The US favoring anyone who has money is a plain fact, clear as day. Just because someone is successful in spite of that doesn't mean it's not true. For every person that survived the odds with hard work and some luck, there are 5 brilliant people here who don't get that chance. People who are relegated to the lower class because the system didn't give them the opportunity to succeed, and all our lives are worse for it. These people go on to commit crimes to alleviate their socioeconomic problems, or at best generally less productive than they could be. A society should be measured by the opportunities it provides for people to remove themselves from poverty. The United States does a quantifiably miserable job at this, both through education and social welfare. It's simple enough to look at the statistics for upward class mobility and to see that the United States is worse than ever in these regards. And we are the wealthiest country in the world. Something is wrong, and a large part of the problem is the financial, educational, and social incentives provided to the wealthy and the cyclical nature of poverty. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/05/23/feds-release-broader-data-socioeconomic-status-and-college-enrollment-and-completion https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2019/05/23/feds-release-...

mythrwy 6y ago
Some of what you say is likely the case but it should be noted that wealth isn't fixed. It didn't start with some families when time begin and doesn't remain static through the proceeding generations. So there are obviously other factors besides wealth. At the end of the day someone, somewhere, had a need and put in the effort (for good or ill) and obtained wealth. But mostly I'm curious what you would do differently?
theamk 6y ago
I agree that education system US is not the best and could definitely improve, and that the situation in poorer cities is broken. But you are saying things like: > Your child doesn't get the opportunity to be the beneficiary of that headline without first being purchased a top rate education at America's best high schools. Does this mean I should say, “hey, earthscienceman only has PhD because his parents has purchased him top rate education in the America’s best high school”?
- earthscienceman 6y ago
  No. You should say exactly the words I wrote, which is "earthscienceman only has a PhD because he managed to survive a mediocre system through pure grit and determination" My grit and determination is not a metric that shows that the system functions.

heterodoxxed 6y ago

What is the American Dream? The ability to work hard and be rewarded. That dream has a name and it is class/social mobility. That's something we can measure and the US does not come out well in that measurement. There are many countries that are much better for class/social mobility than the US. We may be better than the poor (often exploited third world) country that immigrants come here from, but we are not the best by far. We're not even in the top 20. The World Economic Forum puts us at 27, between Lithuania and Spain. http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/social-mobility-rankings/ http://reports.weforum.org/social-mobility-report-2020/socia...