4 ms·

They attribute the attack to a particular actor without providing any evidence to the public. A bug could exist that enables such an attack, but it's not proven

They attribute the attack to a particular actor without providing any evidence to the public. A bug could exist that enables such an attack, but it's not proven any emails were ever even taken. They did find a tool left behind it seems. I am just increasingly skeptical of these hacking stories that have a nat sec angle on them after the previous ones have been shown to be mostly or entirely fraudulent years later.

fouric 6y ago
> the previous ones have been shown to be mostly or entirely fraudulent years later ...they said, while providing no evidence to the public.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  I was referring to Russiagate and the allegations made over Wikileaks. Even if I was some kind of international troll (hint: I'm not), it wouldn't matter because it remains true that the attribution is an evidence free assertion about the current target for dirty tricks by the USG. It moved a few millimeters across the world map. "Bombshell: Crowdstrike admits ‘no evidence’ Russia stole emails from DNC server" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/05/11/bombshell-crowdstrike-admits-no-evidence-russia-stole-emails-from-dnc-server/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/05/11/bombshell-crowdstrike-adm...
  - elefanten 6y ago
    Those examples are nothing like hack disclosures.
    - tehjoker 6y ago
      On the contrary, they literally were allegations of hacks in several cases. Remember "Russia is hacking our democracy!"?
  - withinboredom 6y ago
    Small map you have there
    - tehjoker 6y ago
      You only need to move across an invisibly thin border line.
      - withinboredom 6y ago
        Technically, but I highly doubt Siberia is where a bunch of hackers live. Tangentially, it could still be Russia going through China...
        tehjoker 6y ago
        Last comment from me in this thread, but I meant the target of US government ire, not a literal movement of people.
_jal 6y ago
Please be specific with your 'they's when throwing around suggestions that someone is being deceptive. In this case, Microsoft is identifying the actor quite clearly: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/03/02/new-nation-state-cyberattacks/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/03/02/new-nat...
- tehjoker 6y ago
  Microsoft is also providing evidence free assertions.
  - _jal 6y ago
    You're failing to state a claim, other than perhaps "some guy on the internet is distrustful". If you have a reason other than your feelings about domestic politics for skepticism about this case, please share it.
    - tehjoker 6y ago
      Based on the previous hacks of the DNC regarding Russiagate and Wikileaks being fraudulent allegations, the current leadership being Democratic (1), and the current target being China, I am not convinced by simple assertions alleging the an actual exfiltration of emails by China without evidence. (1) Not that Republicans wouldn't be above this, just that the Democratic party has a history of this particular tactic. EDIT: My guess is that if they actually showed what they were basing this allegation on, a lot of people would conclude it was extremely weak stuff, maybe impossible to decide who did it if anyone did. Hiding information is extremely useful for spinning authoritative narratives. Of course let's not forget that NSA implants are probably present in strategic locations around China, but that's par for the course.
      - jlgaddis 6y ago
        > Hiding information is extremely useful for spinning authoritative narratives. Telling the criminals, publicly and in detail, exactly how you know it's them is also extremely useful -- to them! -- in that they know what not to do the next time around. It's in your own best interest to keep that information secret, especially if you have any reason whatsoever to expect that it may be useful again in the future. Yes, this requires that we simply trust Microsoft when they say it was $attacker. You can choose not to believe them, if you like, and demand to see all the evidence. I don't think that will hurt their feelings all that much -- and I also don't think you should hold your breath while waiting for them to give you that evidence. Ultimately, it doesn't matter all that much -- as far as I'm concerned -- whether it was China or North Korea or Canada or New Zealand. I'm less worried about who did it than I am cleaning it up and doing whatever I can to prevent it from happening again.
pluc 6y ago
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/298536/faq-for-march-2021-exchange-server-security-update.html https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/298536/fa... https://github.com/microsoft/CSS-Exchange/tree/main/Security https://github.com/microsoft/CSS-Exchange/tree/main/Security
- tehjoker 6y ago
  I am not quibbling with the existence of an exploit but the assertion that it was definitely exploited and by China. My message to all security firms: put up or shut up re evidence.
  - xbar 6y ago
    attack.mitre.org is your friend. The truth may not be, by the smell of things.
riffic 6y ago
like the Sony hack blamed on NK because of a Seth Rogan/James Franco movie? From what I remember there was absolutely no proof there either.
yumraj 6y ago
WSJ reports its China [0] [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-linked-hack-hits-tens-of-thousands-of-u-s-microsoft-customers-11615007991?mod=djemalertNEWS https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-linked-hack-hits-tens-of-...

fouric 6y ago

> the previous ones have been shown to be mostly or entirely fraudulent years later ...they said, while providing no evidence to the public.

tehjoker 6y ago
I was referring to Russiagate and the allegations made over Wikileaks. Even if I was some kind of international troll (hint: I'm not), it wouldn't matter because it remains true that the attribution is an evidence free assertion about the current target for dirty tricks by the USG. It moved a few millimeters across the world map. "Bombshell: Crowdstrike admits ‘no evidence’ Russia stole emails from DNC server" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/05/11/bombshell-crowdstrike-admits-no-evidence-russia-stole-emails-from-dnc-server/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/05/11/bombshell-crowdstrike-adm...
- elefanten 6y ago
  Those examples are nothing like hack disclosures.
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    On the contrary, they literally were allegations of hacks in several cases. Remember "Russia is hacking our democracy!"?
- withinboredom 6y ago
  Small map you have there
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    You only need to move across an invisibly thin border line.
    - withinboredom 6y ago
      Technically, but I highly doubt Siberia is where a bunch of hackers live. Tangentially, it could still be Russia going through China...
      - tehjoker 6y ago
        Last comment from me in this thread, but I meant the target of US government ire, not a literal movement of people.

_jal 6y ago

Please be specific with your 'they's when throwing around suggestions that someone is being deceptive. In this case, Microsoft is identifying the actor quite clearly: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/03/02/new-nation-state-cyberattacks/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/03/02/new-nat...

tehjoker 6y ago
Microsoft is also providing evidence free assertions.
- _jal 6y ago
  You're failing to state a claim, other than perhaps "some guy on the internet is distrustful". If you have a reason other than your feelings about domestic politics for skepticism about this case, please share it.
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    Based on the previous hacks of the DNC regarding Russiagate and Wikileaks being fraudulent allegations, the current leadership being Democratic (1), and the current target being China, I am not convinced by simple assertions alleging the an actual exfiltration of emails by China without evidence. (1) Not that Republicans wouldn't be above this, just that the Democratic party has a history of this particular tactic. EDIT: My guess is that if they actually showed what they were basing this allegation on, a lot of people would conclude it was extremely weak stuff, maybe impossible to decide who did it if anyone did. Hiding information is extremely useful for spinning authoritative narratives. Of course let's not forget that NSA implants are probably present in strategic locations around China, but that's par for the course.
    - jlgaddis 6y ago
      > Hiding information is extremely useful for spinning authoritative narratives. Telling the criminals, publicly and in detail, exactly how you know it's them is also extremely useful -- to them! -- in that they know what not to do the next time around. It's in your own best interest to keep that information secret, especially if you have any reason whatsoever to expect that it may be useful again in the future. Yes, this requires that we simply trust Microsoft when they say it was $attacker. You can choose not to believe them, if you like, and demand to see all the evidence. I don't think that will hurt their feelings all that much -- and I also don't think you should hold your breath while waiting for them to give you that evidence. Ultimately, it doesn't matter all that much -- as far as I'm concerned -- whether it was China or North Korea or Canada or New Zealand. I'm less worried about who did it than I am cleaning it up and doing whatever I can to prevent it from happening again.

pluc 6y ago

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/298536/faq-for-march-2021-exchange-server-security-update.html https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/298536/fa... https://github.com/microsoft/CSS-Exchange/tree/main/Security https://github.com/microsoft/CSS-Exchange/tree/main/Security

tehjoker 6y ago
I am not quibbling with the existence of an exploit but the assertion that it was definitely exploited and by China. My message to all security firms: put up or shut up re evidence.
- xbar 6y ago
  attack.mitre.org is your friend. The truth may not be, by the smell of things.

riffic 6y ago

like the Sony hack blamed on NK because of a Seth Rogan/James Franco movie? From what I remember there was absolutely no proof there either.

yumraj 6y ago

WSJ reports its China [0] [0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-linked-hack-hits-tens-of-thousands-of-u-s-microsoft-customers-11615007991?mod=djemalertNEWS https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-linked-hack-hits-tens-of-...