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It certainly school's fault. Maryland has truancy laws: https://www.peoples-law.org/truancy https://www.peoples-law.org/truancy Specifically: "Under Maryland l

by rusabd 6y ago

It certainly school's fault. Maryland has truancy laws: https://www.peoples-law.org/truancy https://www.peoples-law.org/truancy Specifically: "Under Maryland law, a truant student is one who is “unlawfully absent” from school for more than: 8 days in any quarter, 15 days in any semester, OR 20 days in a school year." Also, "What happens when a student is found to be truant? The student will be referred to the county board’s system of active intervention. Note that each county must develop a system of active intervention for truant students. A school system representative will investigate the cause of the truancy. This representative may provide counseling or even notify the Department of Juvenile Services. " There is whole system designed to handle such cases and it failed miserably

seiferteric 6y ago
In general I agree, except he was in the top half of the class... So it sounds like at least half the school just routinely does not show up. So how does the system deal with a situation like this? I think it would completely overwhelm the school/local PD.
- rusabd 6y ago
  Well, the school was fully aware what is going on and instead of taking any action as they are obliged to do they decided to do exactly nothing. The school might not be able to do much in this case, but the _school system_ has enough resources to change the situation.
  - civilized 6y ago
    What's your plan? Let's hear it
  - unishark 6y ago
    > ...they decided to do exactly nothing. They were very slow and weak about responding, but you're overstating. They did a few things over the three years, up to and including finally bumping the child back to 9th grade. The mother apparently did exactly nothing. Until the school's actions finally hit home hard enough.
    - rusabd 6y ago
      The headline literally says "ranks near top half of class with 0.13 GPA". So it is not an isolated incident. That is a lot of mothers who did exactly nothing
      - unishark 6y ago
        Maybe? I don't know. My complaint is with your misuse of language to make a point. "Exactly nothing" means beyond zero is excluded. At worst you need to use "essentially nothing" or some such vague/weasel words rather than stating logical falsehoods.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
edbob 6y ago
If the system tries to force compliance, it is invariably attacked for disproportionately penalizing minorities (even if the penalties are proportionate to non-compliance rates). How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? It seems very logical (however shameful) that the system would optimize for passively allowing students to age out of the system, as letting minority students fail doesn't have anywhere near as much blowback as fining or locking up disadvantaged people for truancy.
- HeroOfAges 6y ago
  Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. This is one of the unintended consequences of viewing every unequal outcome between ethnic groups as proof of racism.
  - civilized 6y ago
    Foreseeable consequences are not unintended. https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/ https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/
- rusabd 6y ago
  > How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? Focus on actual outcomes would be a good start. I would replace the whole school administration with someone more capable.
  - edbob 6y ago
    Fines and jail time are the "actual outcomes" of truancy charges, and are much more immediate than proficiency tests and graduation rates. You simply can't force people to go to school without also punishing some of the parents and students, who are disproportionately in disadvantaged groups.
    - rusabd 6y ago
      In this specific case I didn't any failure of enforcement at all because there weren't any. The school administration just dropped the ball without any explanation and no corrective action against _itself_. I guess tree-jobs-mum doesn't have much time going to school and make sure administration does its job.
macspoofing 6y ago
Let's say the school failed miserably in notifying the parent about this kid (and that's not settled fact, the school claims they did, but for argument's sake let's assume they didn't)...SO WHAT??? How does that absolve the parent of responsibility? How could this parent not be aware what her kid has been doing all these years? She didn't bother looking at his report card even once(the web portal is open to all parents)? Didn't bother meeting one of his teachers even once? Who is ultimately responsible for raising this kid? School or the parent?
- jdavis703 6y ago
  The report said the parent was working three jobs. I don’t know how we can expect someone like this to be a good parent. The blame here at least partly goes to a system that doesn’t provide all parents with the resources to raise successful children.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    It's the system's fault. It's society's fault. It's the school board's fault. It's the school's fault. It's the teacher's fault. Who else's fault is it?
    - richwater 6y ago
      Everyone but the parents
      - umvi 6y ago
        I think the argument is yes it's the parents' fault. But that's not something we can directly fix. We can directly fix school budgets and stuff so that's what gets the blame. How do you fix broken families from a government perspective?
        lurquer 6y ago
        Abolish divorce, criminalize adultery, castrate men who knock up women out of wedlock... Something less drastic? How about this.. Look at this thread. You’ll read all kinds of excuses for and blame of the mother. Yet nobody mentioned the father. A father — under our system — faces no penalty for neglecting a child. None. In a custody order where the mother has primary, the father has NO OBLIgATION to see the kid. This is so engrained in our culture that, like I said, the thread doesn’t even mention a father...
slibhb 6y ago
The idea that we can offload child-rearing to the government is insane and will never, ever work. When shown proof of that, your response is to double down on your mistake. Parents need to actively encourage and discipline children. The fact that this isn't obvious to everyone is deeply troubling. What we're seeing here is the breakdown of extra-legal authority and responsibility. Truancy laws and CPS only work when the vast majority of parents do their job.
- rusabd 6y ago
  > Truancy laws and CPS only work when the vast majority of parents do their job. That is a dangerous thought. The next thing one might say is why we need truancy laws and CPS if not to harass well-behaved middle class parents.
  - slibhb 6y ago
    That's the opposite of what I said. Truancy laws and CPS work great when parents are "well-behaved". But they aren't a substitute for "well-behaved" parents. No matter how much money the government spends it will not be able to raise children. I don't know how to solve this problem but I am sure any solution involves recognizing what's going on here, which you are not doing.
    - rusabd 6y ago
      > But they aren't a substitute for "well-behaved" parents Should we discourage some people having children then?
      - justsid 6y ago
        Realistically and objectively, the answer has to be yes. Although you get into all sorts of issues if you actually go down that line, so practically the answer is no.
  - unishark 6y ago
    I think the point was the student will still fail. Truancy laws can force them to sit in a chair. But they can't make the student care about passing when their parent isn't holding them to any such standards.
rayiner 6y ago
When only 60% of kids show up to school on a given day, as in this school, there is nothing the school can do to fix things. Laws and rules and enforcement are there to nudge occasional non-compliants back in track. Social norms are what are supposed to make the vast majority of people follow the rules.
cwhiz 6y ago
Are you serious? Kid isn’t showing up to school, and you think the school is to blame? What the hell happened to personal responsibility? The parents are 1000000% to blame here. The school system isn’t your nanny.
JustSomeNobody 6y ago
It is not just the school's fault; it is society's. This is a systemic issue with how the poor are treated. Our medical system is a shambles, so disorders go untreated. Nutrition is a problem (can't have a healthy mind when you don't have enough good food to eat). Parents were victims of the system so they'll rarely be able to get a job that will get them out of this. It's cyclical, the parents, and eventually the children of these kids, go through the same thing. Over and over and over. It won't stop on its own.

by rusabd 6y ago

seiferteric 6y ago

In general I agree, except he was in the top half of the class... So it sounds like at least half the school just routinely does not show up. So how does the system deal with a situation like this? I think it would completely overwhelm the school/local PD.

rusabd 6y ago
Well, the school was fully aware what is going on and instead of taking any action as they are obliged to do they decided to do exactly nothing. The school might not be able to do much in this case, but the _school system_ has enough resources to change the situation.
- civilized 6y ago
  What's your plan? Let's hear it
- unishark 6y ago
  > ...they decided to do exactly nothing. They were very slow and weak about responding, but you're overstating. They did a few things over the three years, up to and including finally bumping the child back to 9th grade. The mother apparently did exactly nothing. Until the school's actions finally hit home hard enough.
  - rusabd 6y ago
    The headline literally says "ranks near top half of class with 0.13 GPA". So it is not an isolated incident. That is a lot of mothers who did exactly nothing
    - unishark 6y ago
      Maybe? I don't know. My complaint is with your misuse of language to make a point. "Exactly nothing" means beyond zero is excluded. At worst you need to use "essentially nothing" or some such vague/weasel words rather than stating logical falsehoods.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

edbob 6y ago

If the system tries to force compliance, it is invariably attacked for disproportionately penalizing minorities (even if the penalties are proportionate to non-compliance rates). How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? It seems very logical (however shameful) that the system would optimize for passively allowing students to age out of the system, as letting minority students fail doesn't have anywhere near as much blowback as fining or locking up disadvantaged people for truancy.

HeroOfAges 6y ago
Not sure why this comment is being downvoted. This is one of the unintended consequences of viewing every unequal outcome between ethnic groups as proof of racism.
- civilized 6y ago
  Foreseeable consequences are not unintended. https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/ https://colorado-libertarian.com/2010/03/22/rcs-iron-laws/
rusabd 6y ago
> How is the system actually going to force compliance without being attacked as racist? Focus on actual outcomes would be a good start. I would replace the whole school administration with someone more capable.
- edbob 6y ago
  Fines and jail time are the "actual outcomes" of truancy charges, and are much more immediate than proficiency tests and graduation rates. You simply can't force people to go to school without also punishing some of the parents and students, who are disproportionately in disadvantaged groups.
  - rusabd 6y ago
    In this specific case I didn't any failure of enforcement at all because there weren't any. The school administration just dropped the ball without any explanation and no corrective action against _itself_. I guess tree-jobs-mum doesn't have much time going to school and make sure administration does its job.

macspoofing 6y ago

Let's say the school failed miserably in notifying the parent about this kid (and that's not settled fact, the school claims they did, but for argument's sake let's assume they didn't)...SO WHAT??? How does that absolve the parent of responsibility? How could this parent not be aware what her kid has been doing all these years? She didn't bother looking at his report card even once(the web portal is open to all parents)? Didn't bother meeting one of his teachers even once? Who is ultimately responsible for raising this kid? School or the parent?

jdavis703 6y ago
The report said the parent was working three jobs. I don’t know how we can expect someone like this to be a good parent. The blame here at least partly goes to a system that doesn’t provide all parents with the resources to raise successful children.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  It's the system's fault. It's society's fault. It's the school board's fault. It's the school's fault. It's the teacher's fault. Who else's fault is it?
  - richwater 6y ago
    Everyone but the parents
    - umvi 6y ago
      I think the argument is yes it's the parents' fault. But that's not something we can directly fix. We can directly fix school budgets and stuff so that's what gets the blame. How do you fix broken families from a government perspective?
      - lurquer 6y ago
        Abolish divorce, criminalize adultery, castrate men who knock up women out of wedlock... Something less drastic? How about this.. Look at this thread. You’ll read all kinds of excuses for and blame of the mother. Yet nobody mentioned the father. A father — under our system — faces no penalty for neglecting a child. None. In a custody order where the mother has primary, the father has NO OBLIgATION to see the kid. This is so engrained in our culture that, like I said, the thread doesn’t even mention a father...

slibhb 6y ago

The idea that we can offload child-rearing to the government is insane and will never, ever work. When shown proof of that, your response is to double down on your mistake. Parents need to actively encourage and discipline children. The fact that this isn't obvious to everyone is deeply troubling. What we're seeing here is the breakdown of extra-legal authority and responsibility. Truancy laws and CPS only work when the vast majority of parents do their job.

rusabd 6y ago
> Truancy laws and CPS only work when the vast majority of parents do their job. That is a dangerous thought. The next thing one might say is why we need truancy laws and CPS if not to harass well-behaved middle class parents.
- slibhb 6y ago
  That's the opposite of what I said. Truancy laws and CPS work great when parents are "well-behaved". But they aren't a substitute for "well-behaved" parents. No matter how much money the government spends it will not be able to raise children. I don't know how to solve this problem but I am sure any solution involves recognizing what's going on here, which you are not doing.
  - rusabd 6y ago
    > But they aren't a substitute for "well-behaved" parents Should we discourage some people having children then?
    - justsid 6y ago
      Realistically and objectively, the answer has to be yes. Although you get into all sorts of issues if you actually go down that line, so practically the answer is no.
- unishark 6y ago
  I think the point was the student will still fail. Truancy laws can force them to sit in a chair. But they can't make the student care about passing when their parent isn't holding them to any such standards.

rayiner 6y ago

When only 60% of kids show up to school on a given day, as in this school, there is nothing the school can do to fix things. Laws and rules and enforcement are there to nudge occasional non-compliants back in track. Social norms are what are supposed to make the vast majority of people follow the rules.

cwhiz 6y ago

Are you serious? Kid isn’t showing up to school, and you think the school is to blame? What the hell happened to personal responsibility? The parents are 1000000% to blame here. The school system isn’t your nanny.

JustSomeNobody 6y ago

It is not just the school's fault; it is society's. This is a systemic issue with how the poor are treated. Our medical system is a shambles, so disorders go untreated. Nutrition is a problem (can't have a healthy mind when you don't have enough good food to eat). Parents were victims of the system so they'll rarely be able to get a job that will get them out of this. It's cyclical, the parents, and eventually the children of these kids, go through the same thing. Over and over and over. It won't stop on its own.