4 ms·

"He didn't fail, the school failed him." It's almost ridiclous. If students don't show up, don't care, have absolutely no interest in paying attention, are mo

by jariel 6y ago

"He didn't fail, the school failed him." It's almost ridiclous. If students don't show up, don't care, have absolutely no interest in paying attention, are more concerned with social structure etc. then a top prep-school would have the same outcomes. The blame and externalizations is part of the problem. The teachers are basically heroes. The families, students, communities are completely broken, that's the problem.

belltaco 6y ago
>The teachers are basically heroes. What? Why are the teachers basically heroes for letting a student to the next grade while he's failing that much? And also not informing the parent about it? Huh?
- jariel 6y ago
  ? This line of thinking is really insulting to teachers. Do you think for a moment the teachers have a right one way or the other to fail those students? What would happen when the teacher decides to fail 80% of a class? Do you think that's allowed? Not for a second. And 'informing the parent about attendance'? You think the parents generally care one bit? You think the parents don't know their kids are never in class? What kind of parent 'discovers' their kid has not been in school for 2 years?!? That it's the teachers responsibility to spend 4 hours on the phone every day as 70% of her class doesn't show up? It is the expectation that students: 1) Show up. 2) Paid attention. 3) Don't join gangs. 4) Try to finish the work. If they do those things, they will get an education. Beyond that, it's really hard for schools - a school can handle a 'small handful' of special cases, but not much more.
  - threatofrain 6y ago
    Keeping the parents in the loop and developing interventions is part of the administration's job, especially if a child has been absent overall (as opposed to only not attending math). The fact that this parent didn't know so many things for so long means that they are absentee. But they are holding 3 jobs, and for them to not know also indicates the failure of the school to keep the parent informed.
    - hc-taway 6y ago
      It is entirely possible the school didn't communicate well, but be aware it's typical for a parent with a grievance to report not having received messages that have been presented to them several times via several different channels. And that's not even considering the ones who'll simply lie (every teacher will run into some of these), but just the ones who don't read anything or respond to phone calls.
      - belltaco 6y ago
        >but be aware it's typical for a parent with a grievance to report not having received messages that have been presented to them several times via several different channels. Sure, but it's also typical for school admin to lie about the same thing happening when it did not.
        hc-taway 6y ago
        I mean, yeah, that's fair. School admin is one of those things you had some thoughts about as a kid, and later learn you weren't only entirely right about them, but it's much worse than you thought, rather than one of those things where you realize you were wrong when you grow up.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - tester756 6y ago
      I will never understand that logic where people try hard to avoid blaming parents parents are normal people too, they sometimes suck too, just move on.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Why are the teachers basically heroes for letting a student to the next grade while he's failing that much? Promotion policy is probably administrators, not teachers. (There are other reasons, like the lack of apparent attempted active contact from teachers despite the number of failed classes, absences, etc., why the teachers here are not heros, but promotion policy probably isn't something they control.)
stormbeard 6y ago
What did the teachers even DO to be heroes? It's not like they tried to turn these kids' lives around or something. They didn't even to the bare minimum of their jobs... They basically just showed up to work and rubber-stamped everyone on to the next grade. Tell me what about this makes them heroes.
- jariel 6y ago
  They are 'heroes' because they are trying to teach the most impossible, intransigent, terrible students in a nearly hopeless scenario. Most of them could quit and just go elsewhere - often they do the work because they view it as a social responsibility. Everything they do beyond 'showing up and teaching' is beyond their duty, and most of them do. This whole bit about 'rubber stamping to the next grade' is a misunderstanding of the situation -> they don't have the power to fail students en masse. I suggest >80% of teachers would be happy to 'fail' students if that were allowable. They'd probably love to have classes of 8-10 students which is probably the necessary level of attention required. If teachers acted rationally they would quit and leave - frankly I think they should, let the communities deep problems be exposed for what they are.
  - tedunangst 6y ago
    What does "trying to teach" mean in this context? Standing in front of an empty classroom and giving a monologue?
    - gverrilla 6y ago
      exactly. from my experience, it's also the same monologue the prior class would get, and the next one
  - prepend 6y ago
    They are much heroes as anyone who does a hard job is a hero. It’s quite rationale to stay in a position and get paid in order to pay bills, manage life, etc.
sudosysgen 6y ago
If one person is failing then maybe it's because they made bad decisions. If most people are failing, then it's not a case of bad decisions, it's a systems issue. It's stupid to try to apply personal responsibility to average behaviour. Groups of people do things for reasons.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  And it's rude to presuppose that even a single person is entirely at fault for their situation. If a kid is doing a job or twoand the mom 3 and he's missed several days of class because the family is literally trying to keep its life afloat, can you fault that kid for not knowing how to read? It's easy to make bold statements and declare the failing of others when you're not the one living it. Life. can. be. hard. To a degree that nearly everyone on this forum especially cannot begin to comprehend.
  - upbeat_general 6y ago
    It’s truly sad how out of touch HN can be.
nate_meurer 6y ago
> If students don't show up, don't care, have absolutely no interest in paying attention, are more concerned with social structure etc. then a top prep-school would have the same outcomes. Bullshit. I'm exactly who you describe. I went to a top prep highschool. I jerked off for four years, doing no serious work and giving no fucks. I coasted to graduation with a 2.0 grade average, a feat that I repeated in college for my five-and-a-half year bachelor degree. I now have a career, a house, and various other fixings of middle class life because I was a white kid in a wealthy area code, and was thus afforded enough attention to spare me from my own foolishness.

by jariel 6y ago

belltaco 6y ago

>The teachers are basically heroes. What? Why are the teachers basically heroes for letting a student to the next grade while he's failing that much? And also not informing the parent about it? Huh?

jariel 6y ago
? This line of thinking is really insulting to teachers. Do you think for a moment the teachers have a right one way or the other to fail those students? What would happen when the teacher decides to fail 80% of a class? Do you think that's allowed? Not for a second. And 'informing the parent about attendance'? You think the parents generally care one bit? You think the parents don't know their kids are never in class? What kind of parent 'discovers' their kid has not been in school for 2 years?!? That it's the teachers responsibility to spend 4 hours on the phone every day as 70% of her class doesn't show up? It is the expectation that students: 1) Show up. 2) Paid attention. 3) Don't join gangs. 4) Try to finish the work. If they do those things, they will get an education. Beyond that, it's really hard for schools - a school can handle a 'small handful' of special cases, but not much more.
- threatofrain 6y ago
  Keeping the parents in the loop and developing interventions is part of the administration's job, especially if a child has been absent overall (as opposed to only not attending math). The fact that this parent didn't know so many things for so long means that they are absentee. But they are holding 3 jobs, and for them to not know also indicates the failure of the school to keep the parent informed.
  - hc-taway 6y ago
    It is entirely possible the school didn't communicate well, but be aware it's typical for a parent with a grievance to report not having received messages that have been presented to them several times via several different channels. And that's not even considering the ones who'll simply lie (every teacher will run into some of these), but just the ones who don't read anything or respond to phone calls.
    - belltaco 6y ago
      >but be aware it's typical for a parent with a grievance to report not having received messages that have been presented to them several times via several different channels. Sure, but it's also typical for school admin to lie about the same thing happening when it did not.
      - hc-taway 6y ago
        I mean, yeah, that's fair. School admin is one of those things you had some thoughts about as a kid, and later learn you weren't only entirely right about them, but it's much worse than you thought, rather than one of those things where you realize you were wrong when you grow up.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - tester756 6y ago
    I will never understand that logic where people try hard to avoid blaming parents parents are normal people too, they sometimes suck too, just move on.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Why are the teachers basically heroes for letting a student to the next grade while he's failing that much? Promotion policy is probably administrators, not teachers. (There are other reasons, like the lack of apparent attempted active contact from teachers despite the number of failed classes, absences, etc., why the teachers here are not heros, but promotion policy probably isn't something they control.)

stormbeard 6y ago

What did the teachers even DO to be heroes? It's not like they tried to turn these kids' lives around or something. They didn't even to the bare minimum of their jobs... They basically just showed up to work and rubber-stamped everyone on to the next grade. Tell me what about this makes them heroes.

jariel 6y ago
They are 'heroes' because they are trying to teach the most impossible, intransigent, terrible students in a nearly hopeless scenario. Most of them could quit and just go elsewhere - often they do the work because they view it as a social responsibility. Everything they do beyond 'showing up and teaching' is beyond their duty, and most of them do. This whole bit about 'rubber stamping to the next grade' is a misunderstanding of the situation -> they don't have the power to fail students en masse. I suggest >80% of teachers would be happy to 'fail' students if that were allowable. They'd probably love to have classes of 8-10 students which is probably the necessary level of attention required. If teachers acted rationally they would quit and leave - frankly I think they should, let the communities deep problems be exposed for what they are.
- tedunangst 6y ago
  What does "trying to teach" mean in this context? Standing in front of an empty classroom and giving a monologue?
  - gverrilla 6y ago
    exactly. from my experience, it's also the same monologue the prior class would get, and the next one
- prepend 6y ago
  They are much heroes as anyone who does a hard job is a hero. It’s quite rationale to stay in a position and get paid in order to pay bills, manage life, etc.

sudosysgen 6y ago

If one person is failing then maybe it's because they made bad decisions. If most people are failing, then it's not a case of bad decisions, it's a systems issue. It's stupid to try to apply personal responsibility to average behaviour. Groups of people do things for reasons.

t-writescode 6y ago
And it's rude to presuppose that even a single person is entirely at fault for their situation. If a kid is doing a job or twoand the mom 3 and he's missed several days of class because the family is literally trying to keep its life afloat, can you fault that kid for not knowing how to read? It's easy to make bold statements and declare the failing of others when you're not the one living it. Life. can. be. hard. To a degree that nearly everyone on this forum especially cannot begin to comprehend.
- upbeat_general 6y ago
  It’s truly sad how out of touch HN can be.

nate_meurer 6y ago

> If students don't show up, don't care, have absolutely no interest in paying attention, are more concerned with social structure etc. then a top prep-school would have the same outcomes. Bullshit. I'm exactly who you describe. I went to a top prep highschool. I jerked off for four years, doing no serious work and giving no fucks. I coasted to graduation with a 2.0 grade average, a feat that I repeated in college for my five-and-a-half year bachelor degree. I now have a career, a house, and various other fixings of middle class life because I was a white kid in a wealthy area code, and was thus afforded enough attention to spare me from my own foolishness.