4 ms·

Every time I see the term 'dark pattern', it's always a case of one or the other, with the delineation into fraud varying depending on the relevant laws. In thi

by Bakary 6y ago

Every time I see the term 'dark pattern', it's always a case of one or the other, with the delineation into fraud varying depending on the relevant laws. In this case, they mention how websites skirt the minimum GDPR requirements and trick the users to do what they want, so it looks to be both. The term is in the best case superfluous, in the worst case a harmful euphemism.

hinkley 6y ago
Your top level post reads as if people who use 'dark patterns' as a term have an agenda, and that agenda is fraud and psychological manipulation.
- Bakary 6y ago
  I don't think everyone who uses that term has an agenda. I'm sure most have good intentions, or just are naturally attracted to new buzzwords. It just so happens the term does play into the agenda of those who have one and who manipulate others psychologically in this way. The whole topic is a sensitive one. I'm sure a sizeable number here on HN derive some direct or indirect profit from such practices (running, being employed in or having stock in a company that does this sort of thing, especially FAANGs) while also having some dissonant misgivings about how the internet and technology is evolving. Terms like 'dark patterns' only serve to deepen this confusion and create additional moral distance between such tech workers and the consequences of their work, even if they are not necessarily intended to be nefarious: therefore, we ought to discourage it whenever possible. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, none of what I say here will actually have an effect on any of this, but it's fun to discuss these topics all the same. In any case, I don't see how any of this can be inferred from that single original sentence, but I'll take your word for it.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    I think if someone puts the pauses at different spots than you, the grammar changes substantially. Reading your replies I figured it out, but it reads like not everyone caught that so I thought it might help you sort out some of the reactions you’re getting.
    - Bakary 6y ago
      As a non-native speaker, I appreciate the feedback. I have yet to master the intricacies of this language :)
      - hinkley 6y ago
        I'm currently in a group that is fractious, and it's messing with my instincts to add social commentary when I see people arguing past each other. I can't decide yet if this is a good or a bad thing but thank you for the appreciation.
  - harrybr 6y ago
    The term “dark pattern” refers to user interface design patterns. That’s where the “pattern” bit comes from. There was already a term for anti-pattern which referred to mistakes. I wanted a term that had a Machiavellian tone to it, so I chose “dark” (Star Wars, Harry Potter, why not?). I’m not quite sure why this term proved to be so popular. I think it is helpful to have a term that is a little vague though, as it can be a lot of work to pin down whether something is truly deceptive with an outcome of harm - or just an annoying attempt to nudge.
    - Bakary 6y ago
      Thanks for letting me know. Looking through the thread again after my initial off-the-cuff reaction, I'm starting to think that I may be reading too much into the term due to my own biases and assigning interpretations to people that they might not have. There's certainly more to say on this topic. >I’m not quite sure why this term proved to be so popular. Well, it does sound cool and memorable on its own...
- perl4ever 6y ago
  I read it as primarily saying that the thing which 'dark patterns' refers to is more plainly called "fraud and psychological manipulation, not so much that merely using 'dark patterns' as a euphemism is itself "fraud...etc." Suspicious perhaps, but as an indirect second-order thing. It can be seen as ambiguous, but a lot of language relies on assumptions about what a reasonable person would be thinking. Which causes trouble if you're trying to express a contrary or startling opinion.

by Bakary 6y ago

hinkley 6y ago

Your top level post reads as if people who use 'dark patterns' as a term have an agenda, and that agenda is fraud and psychological manipulation.

Bakary 6y ago
I don't think everyone who uses that term has an agenda. I'm sure most have good intentions, or just are naturally attracted to new buzzwords. It just so happens the term does play into the agenda of those who have one and who manipulate others psychologically in this way. The whole topic is a sensitive one. I'm sure a sizeable number here on HN derive some direct or indirect profit from such practices (running, being employed in or having stock in a company that does this sort of thing, especially FAANGs) while also having some dissonant misgivings about how the internet and technology is evolving. Terms like 'dark patterns' only serve to deepen this confusion and create additional moral distance between such tech workers and the consequences of their work, even if they are not necessarily intended to be nefarious: therefore, we ought to discourage it whenever possible. Of course, in the grand scheme of things, none of what I say here will actually have an effect on any of this, but it's fun to discuss these topics all the same. In any case, I don't see how any of this can be inferred from that single original sentence, but I'll take your word for it.
- hinkley 6y ago
  I think if someone puts the pauses at different spots than you, the grammar changes substantially. Reading your replies I figured it out, but it reads like not everyone caught that so I thought it might help you sort out some of the reactions you’re getting.
  - Bakary 6y ago
    As a non-native speaker, I appreciate the feedback. I have yet to master the intricacies of this language :)
    - hinkley 6y ago
      I'm currently in a group that is fractious, and it's messing with my instincts to add social commentary when I see people arguing past each other. I can't decide yet if this is a good or a bad thing but thank you for the appreciation.
- harrybr 6y ago
  The term “dark pattern” refers to user interface design patterns. That’s where the “pattern” bit comes from. There was already a term for anti-pattern which referred to mistakes. I wanted a term that had a Machiavellian tone to it, so I chose “dark” (Star Wars, Harry Potter, why not?). I’m not quite sure why this term proved to be so popular. I think it is helpful to have a term that is a little vague though, as it can be a lot of work to pin down whether something is truly deceptive with an outcome of harm - or just an annoying attempt to nudge.
  - Bakary 6y ago
    Thanks for letting me know. Looking through the thread again after my initial off-the-cuff reaction, I'm starting to think that I may be reading too much into the term due to my own biases and assigning interpretations to people that they might not have. There's certainly more to say on this topic. >I’m not quite sure why this term proved to be so popular. Well, it does sound cool and memorable on its own...
perl4ever 6y ago
I read it as primarily saying that the thing which 'dark patterns' refers to is more plainly called "fraud and psychological manipulation, not so much that merely using 'dark patterns' as a euphemism is itself "fraud...etc." Suspicious perhaps, but as an indirect second-order thing. It can be seen as ambiguous, but a lot of language relies on assumptions about what a reasonable person would be thinking. Which causes trouble if you're trying to express a contrary or startling opinion.