5 ms·

How to hire an idiot (from the 'How to sell your software for $20,000' guy)

220 points by rob 18y ago

a-priori 18y ago
Could have done with a few fewer "but this guy was a friggin VP of a $100 million company!!!" moments, but still a good story. I don't think anyone would recommend blind trust right off the bat. Of course you need to trust your employees, but only after they've earnt it in a probationary period of increasing responsibility and freedom.
- queensnake 18y ago
  .. and now we've got an example to remember.
- tom_rath 18y ago
  That was the core of the problem though: Having framed the guy as an experienced VP clouded all following judgment and kept the author from giving him the boot.
  - johnyzee 18y ago
    Someone wrote an interesting article once about hiring strategy (Joel?). Basically he didn't want to know anything about the interviewee except what job he was considered for, to the extent that if anyone told him any details (like "Harvard graduate") he'd refuse to interview him, as his perspective would already be tainted.
    - dats 18y ago
      http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing...
      - johnyzee 18y ago
        Right. Too bad the author took every piece of advice from the Guerilla Guide except that one.
    - felideon 18y ago
      I like Steve Yegge's take on the subject, too. http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things-smart.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things...
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
pmorici 18y ago
This business owner unfortunately had that coming to him. The rule is trust your employee's not trust your interviewee.
ericb 18y ago
I really respect the painfully honest admissions from the author. It's hard writing about your worst mistakes and being totally forthcoming. Props for that.
tom_rath 18y ago
The incompetence of this kind of character seems obvious in retrospect but I've found if you've only ever worked with competent people it's dangerously easy to miss these guys. I worked with someone similar a decade ago. I found myself thinking "This guy seems completely clueless but management likes him (and they're smart guys!). He MUST have a great track record -- how else would he have gotten this job? I guess I just don't know sales..." Management's idea was "He costs us just a tiny bit in salary and if only one of his big ideas takes off we'll be rich!". Of course, none of Clueless Sales Guy's 'big ideas' went anywhere and correcting his constant PR errors drained resources from those of us who had at least half a clue. Sometimes you can correctly judge people at first handshake, but I've found myself over-estimating the competence of far too many people based upon the context I've met them in.
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  The incompetence of this kind of character seems obvious in retrospect but I've found if you've only ever worked with competent people it's dangerously easy to miss these guys. This reminds me of one of my all-time favorite PG lines: I've found that people who are great at something are not so much convinced of their own greatness as mystified at why everyone else seems so incompetent.
  - ardit33 18y ago
    There are things that I asume/take for granted other people know, and sometimes I am suprised when they say "oh, wow, I didn't know that". Really? The older I get, the more I get this kind of response from other people, which might mean I am acumulating some kind of knowledge, but still it has failed to register on me exactly how much more I do know from other people, so this also has kept my ego in check.
  - tdavis 18y ago
    One of my favorite quotes; it's so true.
- DougBTX 18y ago
  "The difference between madness and genius is measured only by success."
bigbang 18y ago
I wish I had read the last sentence first.
ojbyrne 18y ago
One of my favorite quotes (can't remember from where, and I'm paraphrasing) is that great marketing people are the most important people you can hire, but it's nearly impossible to figure who are the great marketing people and who are the snake oil salesmen.
- shiro 18y ago
  Interesting. They say non-hackers can't tell whether a programmer is a great hacker or not. Is there a symmetry? Can great salesman tell who's great and who's not?
  - dangrover 18y ago
    I've had this thought too. I've considered getting a totally non-technical job where I have to deal with human beings all day just to see if I'd learn anything.
    - mickt 18y ago
      But the problem with that can be actually dealing with people! I used to work a sales job and the general public can vary from the most nicest honest people U can meet to the most horrible nasty fools that can just ruin your day. At least with programming, there's the satisfaction of writing code and trying to solve complex problems. However, some of the techies can be problematic too.
  - ambition 18y ago
    I don't think there's perfect symmetry. A bad programmer can get stuff done but leave a time bomb of bad code which would be hard for a non-programmer to detect. Sales results are easier to measure than programming. That said I'd have very little confidence in my ability to measure a salesperson at interview-time.
    - esja 18y ago
      A bad salesman can also get stuff done, but leave a time bomb of bad perceptions or promises, which can be hard for a non-salesman to detect.
vaksel 18y ago
Thats the problem with the corporate structure, when you grow to a certain size the people who end up on top aren't your best talent. They are just the people who are the best at playing the corporate game.
Tichy 18y ago
Chatting with a salesperson recently, I thought it was interesting how he described there being different kinds of sales people. There are some getting by on people skills and knowing everybody and their brother, and get the foot in the door that way. Others are extremely technical and make an impression that way. And so on (sadly, I forgot most details). So I could imagine that there might have been a customer who would have been the perfect match for the clueless first hire. Like if at the other end there was also an idiot hire, maybe he might even have fallen for the "it has A, but C is totally super, and B is awesome" stuff. I don't know how those companies handle the matching of sales people to customers, though.
- jamongkad 18y ago
  My guess is that they do the "throw-stuff-on-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks" method of sales people to customer matching. Or maybe you can hack up a social network that does specifically that lol. A social that matches sales people to customers. Ergo some kind of CRM.
- huherto 18y ago
  A combination works fine. Sales people that get you the first interview, backed but a strong technical person. I think his mistake was not being able to use the strengths of his resource effectively, he could have used it to generate leads and then he could be able to close them.
volida 18y ago
i am not sure who is the "idiot" here. "I called the competitor to ask about him. They verified that yes, he was a former VP there. Awesome, this guy was for real." even if the guy who responded the call is real, you just never trust a phone call. if the guy worked on commission why not hire others too on the same manner? also we don't have any info about the product and why they should prefer it.
- Tichy 18y ago
  The obvious question would have been "why is he no longer working for you?".
  - pchristensen 18y ago
    Unless someone is listed as a reference, you're not allowed to ask about job performance, reasons for leaving, etc. You can only contact to verify that the person did actually work there and when.
    - iron_ball 18y ago
      Even with a reference, employers will often be reluctant to dish actual dirt, for a variety of reasons, from pity to legal liability. You have to read between the lines and be up on your euphemisms.
    - skmurphy 18y ago
      You can ask, they may not answer. One good question that can often ferret out issues is "do you have any advice on how to manage him to bring out his best performance?"
      - jamongkad 18y ago
        I think your suggestion is good. But knowing people they're going to be pretty diplomatic about their answer as well. Spitting out generic schlips that you already know. I guess the best advice is Iron_ball's. Just try to read between the lines, but thinking about it, even that method is a stretch :-(
edw519 18y ago
I was prepared! I read a lot of books! lol Books, articles, conferences, websites, etc. can all be excellent sources of good data to run your business (especially for us techies). Just don't make the mistake of substituting them for experience in the trenches. That would be like taking a pill for exercise. (Now if someone could just invent an exercise pill or a book as good as actually doing it...)
- ph0rque 18y ago
  > Now if someone could just invent an exercise pill... http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/07/31/researchers.identify.drugs.enhance.exercise.endurance http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/07/31/researchers.iden...
russell 18y ago
Any salesman, good or bad, can sell himself to an engineer. I too learned that the hard way. Another good rule for a startup: never hire a VP from a major corporation. They are too used to a support staff that does everything for them, writing, presentations, even thinking. As others have said,they are too far removed from performing the on-the-streets job. None of us would hire a VP of Software from IBM to write code. Same applies to sales. Big company VP's are used to intimidation and throwing their weight around, attitudesthat would probably be used against you.
brandon272 18y ago
Two thoughts: a) If the growing startup I work for had only hired new employees if we had a full year's salary for them already in the bank, we wouldn't be even close to where we are today. b) While this guy clearly didn't know his head from his butt when it came to sales, why not leverage his industry connections (which is previous employers obviously felt were strong enough to hire him on, even when he had few other discernable skills) to help establish some important industry contacts? Considering the harm he could have done your business with his, "Please buy our products or else our company will tank." sales approach, I would think he'd be glad to set up a few meetings with some people who actually might have been able to help you out a bit. Food for thought!
jbrun 18y ago
I'm sorry, but this guy is a idiot for hiring the idiot. Putting faith in titles is ridiculous and not recognizing someone's incompetence upon meeting them has more to do with yourself that with the other person. My two cents anyways.
yef 18y ago
So he "read all the books" but didn't interview, look at a resume, or check references? Huh? I feel for the author, and it's a good story and all, but he made some extremely basic mistakes.

220 points by rob 18y ago

Could have done with a few fewer "but this guy was a friggin VP of a $100 million company!!!" moments, but still a good story. I don't think anyone would recommend blind trust right off the bat. Of course you need to trust your employees, but only after they've earnt it in a probationary period of increasing responsibility and freedom.

queensnake 18y ago
.. and now we've got an example to remember.
tom_rath 18y ago
That was the core of the problem though: Having framed the guy as an experienced VP clouded all following judgment and kept the author from giving him the boot.
- johnyzee 18y ago
  Someone wrote an interesting article once about hiring strategy (Joel?). Basically he didn't want to know anything about the interviewee except what job he was considered for, to the extent that if anyone told him any details (like "Harvard graduate") he'd refuse to interview him, as his perspective would already be tainted.
  - dats 18y ago
    http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing...
    - johnyzee 18y ago
      Right. Too bad the author took every piece of advice from the Guerilla Guide except that one.
  - felideon 18y ago
    I like Steve Yegge's take on the subject, too. http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things-smart.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things...

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

pmorici 18y ago

This business owner unfortunately had that coming to him. The rule is trust your employee's not trust your interviewee.

ericb 18y ago

I really respect the painfully honest admissions from the author. It's hard writing about your worst mistakes and being totally forthcoming. Props for that.

tom_rath 18y ago

The incompetence of this kind of character seems obvious in retrospect but I've found if you've only ever worked with competent people it's dangerously easy to miss these guys. I worked with someone similar a decade ago. I found myself thinking "This guy seems completely clueless but management likes him (and they're smart guys!). He MUST have a great track record -- how else would he have gotten this job? I guess I just don't know sales..." Management's idea was "He costs us just a tiny bit in salary and if only one of his big ideas takes off we'll be rich!". Of course, none of Clueless Sales Guy's 'big ideas' went anywhere and correcting his constant PR errors drained resources from those of us who had at least half a clue. Sometimes you can correctly judge people at first handshake, but I've found myself over-estimating the competence of far too many people based upon the context I've met them in.

mechanical_fish 18y ago
The incompetence of this kind of character seems obvious in retrospect but I've found if you've only ever worked with competent people it's dangerously easy to miss these guys. This reminds me of one of my all-time favorite PG lines: I've found that people who are great at something are not so much convinced of their own greatness as mystified at why everyone else seems so incompetent.
- ardit33 18y ago
  There are things that I asume/take for granted other people know, and sometimes I am suprised when they say "oh, wow, I didn't know that". Really? The older I get, the more I get this kind of response from other people, which might mean I am acumulating some kind of knowledge, but still it has failed to register on me exactly how much more I do know from other people, so this also has kept my ego in check.
- tdavis 18y ago
  One of my favorite quotes; it's so true.
DougBTX 18y ago
"The difference between madness and genius is measured only by success."

bigbang 18y ago

I wish I had read the last sentence first.

ojbyrne 18y ago

One of my favorite quotes (can't remember from where, and I'm paraphrasing) is that great marketing people are the most important people you can hire, but it's nearly impossible to figure who are the great marketing people and who are the snake oil salesmen.

shiro 18y ago
Interesting. They say non-hackers can't tell whether a programmer is a great hacker or not. Is there a symmetry? Can great salesman tell who's great and who's not?
- dangrover 18y ago
  I've had this thought too. I've considered getting a totally non-technical job where I have to deal with human beings all day just to see if I'd learn anything.
  - mickt 18y ago
    But the problem with that can be actually dealing with people! I used to work a sales job and the general public can vary from the most nicest honest people U can meet to the most horrible nasty fools that can just ruin your day. At least with programming, there's the satisfaction of writing code and trying to solve complex problems. However, some of the techies can be problematic too.
- ambition 18y ago
  I don't think there's perfect symmetry. A bad programmer can get stuff done but leave a time bomb of bad code which would be hard for a non-programmer to detect. Sales results are easier to measure than programming. That said I'd have very little confidence in my ability to measure a salesperson at interview-time.
  - esja 18y ago
    A bad salesman can also get stuff done, but leave a time bomb of bad perceptions or promises, which can be hard for a non-salesman to detect.

vaksel 18y ago

Thats the problem with the corporate structure, when you grow to a certain size the people who end up on top aren't your best talent. They are just the people who are the best at playing the corporate game.

Tichy 18y ago

Chatting with a salesperson recently, I thought it was interesting how he described there being different kinds of sales people. There are some getting by on people skills and knowing everybody and their brother, and get the foot in the door that way. Others are extremely technical and make an impression that way. And so on (sadly, I forgot most details). So I could imagine that there might have been a customer who would have been the perfect match for the clueless first hire. Like if at the other end there was also an idiot hire, maybe he might even have fallen for the "it has A, but C is totally super, and B is awesome" stuff. I don't know how those companies handle the matching of sales people to customers, though.

jamongkad 18y ago
My guess is that they do the "throw-stuff-on-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks" method of sales people to customer matching. Or maybe you can hack up a social network that does specifically that lol. A social that matches sales people to customers. Ergo some kind of CRM.
huherto 18y ago
A combination works fine. Sales people that get you the first interview, backed but a strong technical person. I think his mistake was not being able to use the strengths of his resource effectively, he could have used it to generate leads and then he could be able to close them.

volida 18y ago

i am not sure who is the "idiot" here. "I called the competitor to ask about him. They verified that yes, he was a former VP there. Awesome, this guy was for real." even if the guy who responded the call is real, you just never trust a phone call. if the guy worked on commission why not hire others too on the same manner? also we don't have any info about the product and why they should prefer it.

Tichy 18y ago
The obvious question would have been "why is he no longer working for you?".
- pchristensen 18y ago
  Unless someone is listed as a reference, you're not allowed to ask about job performance, reasons for leaving, etc. You can only contact to verify that the person did actually work there and when.
  - iron_ball 18y ago
    Even with a reference, employers will often be reluctant to dish actual dirt, for a variety of reasons, from pity to legal liability. You have to read between the lines and be up on your euphemisms.
  - skmurphy 18y ago
    You can ask, they may not answer. One good question that can often ferret out issues is "do you have any advice on how to manage him to bring out his best performance?"
    - jamongkad 18y ago
      I think your suggestion is good. But knowing people they're going to be pretty diplomatic about their answer as well. Spitting out generic schlips that you already know. I guess the best advice is Iron_ball's. Just try to read between the lines, but thinking about it, even that method is a stretch :-(

edw519 18y ago

I was prepared! I read a lot of books! lol Books, articles, conferences, websites, etc. can all be excellent sources of good data to run your business (especially for us techies). Just don't make the mistake of substituting them for experience in the trenches. That would be like taking a pill for exercise. (Now if someone could just invent an exercise pill or a book as good as actually doing it...)

ph0rque 18y ago
> Now if someone could just invent an exercise pill... http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/07/31/researchers.identify.drugs.enhance.exercise.endurance http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/07/31/researchers.iden...

russell 18y ago

Any salesman, good or bad, can sell himself to an engineer. I too learned that the hard way. Another good rule for a startup: never hire a VP from a major corporation. They are too used to a support staff that does everything for them, writing, presentations, even thinking. As others have said,they are too far removed from performing the on-the-streets job. None of us would hire a VP of Software from IBM to write code. Same applies to sales. Big company VP's are used to intimidation and throwing their weight around, attitudesthat would probably be used against you.

brandon272 18y ago

Two thoughts: a) If the growing startup I work for had only hired new employees if we had a full year's salary for them already in the bank, we wouldn't be even close to where we are today. b) While this guy clearly didn't know his head from his butt when it came to sales, why not leverage his industry connections (which is previous employers obviously felt were strong enough to hire him on, even when he had few other discernable skills) to help establish some important industry contacts? Considering the harm he could have done your business with his, "Please buy our products or else our company will tank." sales approach, I would think he'd be glad to set up a few meetings with some people who actually might have been able to help you out a bit. Food for thought!

jbrun 18y ago

I'm sorry, but this guy is a idiot for hiring the idiot. Putting faith in titles is ridiculous and not recognizing someone's incompetence upon meeting them has more to do with yourself that with the other person. My two cents anyways.

yef 18y ago

So he "read all the books" but didn't interview, look at a resume, or check references? Huh? I feel for the author, and it's a good story and all, but he made some extremely basic mistakes.