5 ms·

What pump and dump are you talking about?

EGreg 6y ago
Pump = buy a lot of something so the price goes up. Let's say $2 billion of it <wait for more people to buy it as a result of the price movement, and news, etc.> Dump = sell at the higher prices and match the increased demand This is whats being advocated by market analysts, and it would be considered "fine": https://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings/analyst-color/21/03/20024869/tesla-should-sell-its-bitcoin-and-buy-back-shares-to-create-positive-momentum-says- https://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings/analyst-color/21/03... If companies don't collude but do it in a sequence, then when does it become ok? As a different example, in 2014 employees alleged that Silicon Valley companies colluded to depress their wages, by acting like a cartel: https://equitablegrowth.org/aftermath-wage-collusion-silicon-valley/ https://equitablegrowth.org/aftermath-wage-collusion-silicon... But cartels can form without having to collude, merely by people acting in concert on a meme or belief (like HODL or SQUEEZE THE SQUOZE) and this seems fine! https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3798 https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3798
- gamblor956 6y ago
  A pump and dump scheme requires that the "pump" be achieved by making fraudulent representations about the assets being "pumped" to artificially increase their value, followed by said assets being offloaded at the artificially increased value. McAfee did that all of that. Tesla/Musk did not (no false statements of fact or offloading at artificially inflated values). Additionally, a "cartel" has a legal definition which requires deliberate coordination of activity (aka "collusion"). Independent activity in which everyone does the same thing without coordination is not a cartel, because the coordination aspect of it is key to the illegality of the act.
  - EGreg 6y ago
    So a group of people pumping a cryptocurrency by buying it, and then letting the skyrocketing charts in exchanges and news about it bring new people into the mix, and then selling, is totally fine? Even if this group of people coordinates their activities?
    - vntok 6y ago
      As you wrote it, yes it is completely fine.
      - EGreg 6y ago
        Please back that up with links to a legal argument or SOMETHING. I realize it’s hard to prove a negative but can you at least back it up with authoritative links of some sort?
        gamblor956 6y ago
        In the U.S., activities are legal unless there is a law stating that they are illegal. We don't need to provide an authoritative link that the above is legal; you need to provide some sort of authority that it is not.

Pump = buy a lot of something so the price goes up. Let's say $2 billion of it <wait for more people to buy it as a result of the price movement, and news, etc.> Dump = sell at the higher prices and match the increased demand This is whats being advocated by market analysts, and it would be considered "fine": https://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings/analyst-color/21/03/20024869/tesla-should-sell-its-bitcoin-and-buy-back-shares-to-create-positive-momentum-says- https://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings/analyst-color/21/03... If companies don't collude but do it in a sequence, then when does it become ok? As a different example, in 2014 employees alleged that Silicon Valley companies colluded to depress their wages, by acting like a cartel: https://equitablegrowth.org/aftermath-wage-collusion-silicon-valley/ https://equitablegrowth.org/aftermath-wage-collusion-silicon... But cartels can form without having to collude, merely by people acting in concert on a meme or belief (like HODL or SQUEEZE THE SQUOZE) and this seems fine! https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3798 https://arxiv.org/abs/1201.3798

gamblor956 6y ago
A pump and dump scheme requires that the "pump" be achieved by making fraudulent representations about the assets being "pumped" to artificially increase their value, followed by said assets being offloaded at the artificially increased value. McAfee did that all of that. Tesla/Musk did not (no false statements of fact or offloading at artificially inflated values). Additionally, a "cartel" has a legal definition which requires deliberate coordination of activity (aka "collusion"). Independent activity in which everyone does the same thing without coordination is not a cartel, because the coordination aspect of it is key to the illegality of the act.
- EGreg 6y ago
  So a group of people pumping a cryptocurrency by buying it, and then letting the skyrocketing charts in exchanges and news about it bring new people into the mix, and then selling, is totally fine? Even if this group of people coordinates their activities?
  - vntok 6y ago
    As you wrote it, yes it is completely fine.
    - EGreg 6y ago
      Please back that up with links to a legal argument or SOMETHING. I realize it’s hard to prove a negative but can you at least back it up with authoritative links of some sort?
      - gamblor956 6y ago
        In the U.S., activities are legal unless there is a law stating that they are illegal. We don't need to provide an authoritative link that the above is legal; you need to provide some sort of authority that it is not.