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> it might also be the case that the system is either too difficult too learn for most teams or the system does not match the incentives imposed by the environm

> it might also be the case that the system is either too difficult too learn for most teams or the system does not match the incentives imposed by the environment it is typically deployed into. The system is simple; the implementation is often shallow and ritualistic, imitating the how without understanding the why. But the way that the question was asked leaves a lot of room for interpretation. I think it is important to consider a technique as it was intended vs as it is implemented. It would be the same for TDD, or pair programming, or object-oriented design patterns, and so on. When implemented properly, scrum is beneficial, because it makes it easier for the information to flow through the team and for the team to adjust to the reality. When implemented poorly, it is a hurdle, because it degenerates into a bunch of pointless rituals.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago
Which is the point I hoped I had made, In fact when I was young I worked on a project for BS5750 (aka ISO 9000) and the v senior guy at BSI mentioned that very thing to me.
WJW 6y ago
The "system" for dieting is also simple (eat less, sport more), and yet many people struggle with that too. What would be really interesting is a scrum variety that is easy for people to follow without losing effectiveness.
- beckingz 6y ago
  Bad scrum is like the product organization going on a diet but the product owners/managers are still addicted to eating junk food. I like the analogy.
- azangru 6y ago
  > The "system" for dieting is also simple (eat less, sport more), and yet many people struggle with that too. Yes, but do people then go around saying "this dieting thing is totally dumb and a complete waste of time", "I just don't get why anyone would go on a diet", etc.? And how do those who have managed to stick to a diet and think they have benefited from it look at such people? Because this is the attitude that I think I am seeing in many comments in this thread.
  - mattmanser 6y ago
    Scrum is not dieting, it is just a particular diet. Dieting is agile. And it turns out that Scrum, like all faddy diets, only works for a very small percentage of teams, probably due to their particular character. That character of enjoying being micro-managed as far as I can tell.
    - azangru 6y ago
      > That character of enjoying being micro-managed as far as I can tell. We still haven't established what is it about scrum that makes you say micromanagement. Do you regard all prescriptive statements as micromanagement? Is a software framework, such as Ruby on Rails, or Laravel, or Django micromanagement? Are code reviews micromanagement? Is version control with git micromanagement?

Mauricebranagh 6y ago

Which is the point I hoped I had made, In fact when I was young I worked on a project for BS5750 (aka ISO 9000) and the v senior guy at BSI mentioned that very thing to me.

WJW 6y ago

The "system" for dieting is also simple (eat less, sport more), and yet many people struggle with that too. What would be really interesting is a scrum variety that is easy for people to follow without losing effectiveness.

beckingz 6y ago
Bad scrum is like the product organization going on a diet but the product owners/managers are still addicted to eating junk food. I like the analogy.
azangru 6y ago
> The "system" for dieting is also simple (eat less, sport more), and yet many people struggle with that too. Yes, but do people then go around saying "this dieting thing is totally dumb and a complete waste of time", "I just don't get why anyone would go on a diet", etc.? And how do those who have managed to stick to a diet and think they have benefited from it look at such people? Because this is the attitude that I think I am seeing in many comments in this thread.
- mattmanser 6y ago
  Scrum is not dieting, it is just a particular diet. Dieting is agile. And it turns out that Scrum, like all faddy diets, only works for a very small percentage of teams, probably due to their particular character. That character of enjoying being micro-managed as far as I can tell.
  - azangru 6y ago
    > That character of enjoying being micro-managed as far as I can tell. We still haven't established what is it about scrum that makes you say micromanagement. Do you regard all prescriptive statements as micromanagement? Is a software framework, such as Ruby on Rails, or Laravel, or Django micromanagement? Are code reviews micromanagement? Is version control with git micromanagement?