8 ms·

To be genuinely fair, the six books we're actually talking about are minor works that no one reads to kids anymore. We're not talking about Green Eggs or the L

To be genuinely fair, the six books we're actually talking about are minor works that no one reads to kids anymore. We're not talking about Green Eggs or the Lorax here. Even absent any controversy about racially insensitive artwork (I mean seriously: there are africans drawn as half-monkeys and a chinese man whose eyes are slanted lines! This is not stuff modern kids should be presented with), these definitely aren't "classics". But as far as a place to find them for adults who want to read them, that will curate them for posterity: have you tried the library?

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> Even absent any controversy about racially insensitive artwork (I mean seriously: there are africans drawn as half-monkeys and a chinese man whose eyes are slanted lines! This is not stuff modern kids should be presented with), these definitely aren't "classics". We all grew up with those bugs bunny cartoons with the same depictions, some even going so far as to depict them as cannibals, and I can't say either of those made our generation really think that of either of those ethnic groups. I think it was a realistic trope that 90s kids usually watched cartoons in groups after school with every ethnic group, that Sunny Delight commercial comes to mind [0], as does Dave Chapelle's joke about purple drink. People need to realize that the World is messy, and racism and prejudice exits in all walks of life: none greater than in social class, which transcends ethnicity. And the sooner children realize that the sooner they will be able to acknowledge it and develop a sense of agency in the World to deal with an imperfect World. Instead, all this re-enforces is a helicopter parents 'Karen' antics on to their children in which complaining to no end is the only way to get one's point of view, that ultimately drives to discord in Society: be it person or on social media--with the latter being critical to sustaining it's way over-valuations which mask their Black Mirroresque business models which that often provoke this type of behaviour and should really be the focus here and not canceling Dr. Suess books. Sidenote: I'm sure their is some SJW interpretation for canceling Sunny Delight to be made about this as well as the kid was 'accosted only after a white aggressor perpetuated violence which provoked the black one to do the same' type narrative, but either way it's just best to ignore them. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ddM-FpiMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ddM-FpiMg
- newacct583 6y ago
  > People need to realize that the World is messy, and racism and prejudice exits in all walks of life Yes, they do! I was explaining just this to my kids yesterday, in the context of this very controversy. I don't understand why you think I should have read them those particular books to them when they were toddlers. Seriously, that stuff is pretty vile.
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    If I ran the zoo? Ha. Nobody cares what you read your toddlers. Please do us the service of not caring what I read to mine.
  - grapecookie 6y ago
    its vile? omg. get a grip.
- patentatt 6y ago
  Maybe adults can rationalize this stuff, but a child absolutely cannot. Children are sponges and mirrors at the same time, they do not have the ability to think critically about the world they experience in the way you are suggesting. So in the context of a children’s book, this makes a difference
  - foxhop 6y ago
    That depends on the child. I'm having deep and engaging conversations nightly about these recent events with my 13 and 9 year old who bring it up during dinner, my 4 year old follows along in her own way and keeps up with the understanding. My wife and I help guide the convo and but they draw their own conclusions. Critical thinking is a muscle which must be exercised and grown.
    - patentatt 6y ago
      13 and 9 (to a lesser extent) sure, they can start to understand some of this. But 4? The 4 year old isn’t at the same level at all. I find as a parent that I sometimes lump in my younger one with my older one and unfairly (to the younger) compare them to each other, even though the older one is just so much more developed. This sometimes ends up with me putting too high of expectations on the younger one unintentionally, and she feels inadequate. Not trying to get all advicey here, but I know I have a hard time addressing each child at their own age and level, and while maybe the 4 year old appears to be keeping up, a 4 year olds’ brain is just not as developed as a 13 year old.
dabbledash 6y ago
Do you think they won’t be pulled from libraries? I’m looking forward to Banned Book Week this year. It’s always interesting to see what small percentage of people are serious about their principles.
- newacct583 6y ago
  Cite for anyone anywhere asking that these books be removed from libraries?
  - nyolfen 6y ago
    this wasn't very hard https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/local-libraries-begin-removal-of-controversial-dr-seuss-books/ https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/local-libraries-begin-r... https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/canadian-libraries-reassess-dr-seuss-books-pulled-from-publication-for-racist-images-1.5332254 https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/canadian-libraries-reas... https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2021/03/02/indianapolis-public-library-consider-removing-dr-seuss-books/6884356002/ https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2021/03/02/indiana... https://www.newsday.com/long-island/dr-seuss-books-publication-1.50170821 https://www.newsday.com/long-island/dr-seuss-books-publicati...
    - millzlane 6y ago
      Noone asked them to remove them. The library decided on their own after the publisher decided to remove them. From it's catalog.
      - dabbledash 6y ago
        So, the librarians in these cases are so averse to controversial material that they remove it without even being asked?
        scottious 6y ago
        I don't see what the problem is here? If I open a book store I'm sure as hell not going to sell Mien Kampf or white supremacist manifestos. Am I being unreasonable by standing by my values and not stocking these books? I don't think they should be banned but I also don't think I should be required to sell them. I'm sure there are plenty of Christian book stores / libraries out there who are unwilling to stock The God Delusion. And why would a LGBTQ bookstore sell LGBTQ hate propaganda? I guess this could be taken to an extreme. Maybe a library in a highly conservative town chooses to not stock anything that has a hint of left-wing ideology, and maybe they have internet filters to block any left-wing web sites, and they only put front-and-center highly right-wing books. I don't know, it's complicated.
SiVal 6y ago
In the East Asian country where my family came from and many of my family still live, and in the neighboring East Asian countries where I've lived for so many years, drawing their own eyes as "slanted lines!" is commonplace. (gasp! look at me! Can everyone see how much this offends me? Oh, the humanity! I'm having the vapors! can all you fashionable westerners whose opinions are actually the only ones that matter to me see how sensitive I am?) East Asians don't have any problem presenting themselves to their own children this way, nor do they shy away from drawing big, exaggerated noses on westerners. Western cartoonists often caricature western noses likewise, which doesn't seem to trigger these sensitive westerners at all. It's almost as if they're not actually bothered by it--just like their East Asian counterparts. It's almost as if their outrage depends less on actual hurt feelings and more on how much of a payoff they calculate they might earn from Those in Charge Whose Opinions Actually Matter.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  It's also common for East Asianers to get plastic surgery to "westernize" their eyes, as generations of Western imperialism has warped their idea of beauty about their own eye shape. They may not be notably offended by such slit eye drawings, but they are still damaging.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    That line of thinking is incredibly patronizing and paternalistic. When white people do something because they think it looks good, it’s free choice. When non-white people do something because they think it looks good, it’s the “damaging” consequence of “western imperialism.” It’s like how white people think they invented colorism, even though the preference for fairer skin in women exists throughout the pre-colonial historical record in India, Africa, and Asia. (As a dark skinned person whose half white daughter came out darker than him, I applaud the trend away from fairer skin as a beauty standard! But white people thinking they invented the beauty standard to begin with is self-centered and paternalistic: https://quillette.com/2019/02/13/the-origins-of-colourism/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/13/the-origins-of-colourism/ We had colorism in India long before white people.)
Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
>this is not stuff modern kids should be presented with Isn't that also true of violence in games and movies? Or any morally repugnant behaviour, now that we mention it? In fact, why let them read anything except the Bible?
- tstrimple 6y ago
  The bible is full of rape, incest and murder. It's not family friendly.
skyde 6y ago
Honest question if "eyes with slanted lines" is racist. How should my 5 years old draw a Chinese face instead.
remarkEon 6y ago
>We're not talking about Green Eggs or the Lorax here. Yet. And it's tiresome and boring to hear people pretend that any reasonable line will be drawn. History is full of racially "insensitive" things. What, are we going to make sure "modern kids" don't see that stuff too? What a nullified and pretentious existence. >have you tried the library? I have, and it turns out that the same people who think banning books is fine also run the library. Oh the irony!

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> Even absent any controversy about racially insensitive artwork (I mean seriously: there are africans drawn as half-monkeys and a chinese man whose eyes are slanted lines! This is not stuff modern kids should be presented with), these definitely aren't "classics". We all grew up with those bugs bunny cartoons with the same depictions, some even going so far as to depict them as cannibals, and I can't say either of those made our generation really think that of either of those ethnic groups. I think it was a realistic trope that 90s kids usually watched cartoons in groups after school with every ethnic group, that Sunny Delight commercial comes to mind [0], as does Dave Chapelle's joke about purple drink. People need to realize that the World is messy, and racism and prejudice exits in all walks of life: none greater than in social class, which transcends ethnicity. And the sooner children realize that the sooner they will be able to acknowledge it and develop a sense of agency in the World to deal with an imperfect World. Instead, all this re-enforces is a helicopter parents 'Karen' antics on to their children in which complaining to no end is the only way to get one's point of view, that ultimately drives to discord in Society: be it person or on social media--with the latter being critical to sustaining it's way over-valuations which mask their Black Mirroresque business models which that often provoke this type of behaviour and should really be the focus here and not canceling Dr. Suess books. Sidenote: I'm sure their is some SJW interpretation for canceling Sunny Delight to be made about this as well as the kid was 'accosted only after a white aggressor perpetuated violence which provoked the black one to do the same' type narrative, but either way it's just best to ignore them. 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ddM-FpiMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ddM-FpiMg

newacct583 6y ago
> People need to realize that the World is messy, and racism and prejudice exits in all walks of life Yes, they do! I was explaining just this to my kids yesterday, in the context of this very controversy. I don't understand why you think I should have read them those particular books to them when they were toddlers. Seriously, that stuff is pretty vile.
- jtbayly 6y ago
  If I ran the zoo? Ha. Nobody cares what you read your toddlers. Please do us the service of not caring what I read to mine.
- grapecookie 6y ago
  its vile? omg. get a grip.
patentatt 6y ago
Maybe adults can rationalize this stuff, but a child absolutely cannot. Children are sponges and mirrors at the same time, they do not have the ability to think critically about the world they experience in the way you are suggesting. So in the context of a children’s book, this makes a difference
- foxhop 6y ago
  That depends on the child. I'm having deep and engaging conversations nightly about these recent events with my 13 and 9 year old who bring it up during dinner, my 4 year old follows along in her own way and keeps up with the understanding. My wife and I help guide the convo and but they draw their own conclusions. Critical thinking is a muscle which must be exercised and grown.
  - patentatt 6y ago
    13 and 9 (to a lesser extent) sure, they can start to understand some of this. But 4? The 4 year old isn’t at the same level at all. I find as a parent that I sometimes lump in my younger one with my older one and unfairly (to the younger) compare them to each other, even though the older one is just so much more developed. This sometimes ends up with me putting too high of expectations on the younger one unintentionally, and she feels inadequate. Not trying to get all advicey here, but I know I have a hard time addressing each child at their own age and level, and while maybe the 4 year old appears to be keeping up, a 4 year olds’ brain is just not as developed as a 13 year old.

dabbledash 6y ago

Do you think they won’t be pulled from libraries? I’m looking forward to Banned Book Week this year. It’s always interesting to see what small percentage of people are serious about their principles.

newacct583 6y ago
Cite for anyone anywhere asking that these books be removed from libraries?
- nyolfen 6y ago
  this wasn't very hard https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/local-libraries-begin-removal-of-controversial-dr-seuss-books/ https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/local-libraries-begin-r... https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/canadian-libraries-reassess-dr-seuss-books-pulled-from-publication-for-racist-images-1.5332254 https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/canadian-libraries-reas... https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2021/03/02/indianapolis-public-library-consider-removing-dr-seuss-books/6884356002/ https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/2021/03/02/indiana... https://www.newsday.com/long-island/dr-seuss-books-publication-1.50170821 https://www.newsday.com/long-island/dr-seuss-books-publicati...
  - millzlane 6y ago
    Noone asked them to remove them. The library decided on their own after the publisher decided to remove them. From it's catalog.
    - dabbledash 6y ago
      So, the librarians in these cases are so averse to controversial material that they remove it without even being asked?
      - scottious 6y ago
        I don't see what the problem is here? If I open a book store I'm sure as hell not going to sell Mien Kampf or white supremacist manifestos. Am I being unreasonable by standing by my values and not stocking these books? I don't think they should be banned but I also don't think I should be required to sell them. I'm sure there are plenty of Christian book stores / libraries out there who are unwilling to stock The God Delusion. And why would a LGBTQ bookstore sell LGBTQ hate propaganda? I guess this could be taken to an extreme. Maybe a library in a highly conservative town chooses to not stock anything that has a hint of left-wing ideology, and maybe they have internet filters to block any left-wing web sites, and they only put front-and-center highly right-wing books. I don't know, it's complicated.

SiVal 6y ago

In the East Asian country where my family came from and many of my family still live, and in the neighboring East Asian countries where I've lived for so many years, drawing their own eyes as "slanted lines!" is commonplace. (gasp! look at me! Can everyone see how much this offends me? Oh, the humanity! I'm having the vapors! can all you fashionable westerners whose opinions are actually the only ones that matter to me see how sensitive I am?) East Asians don't have any problem presenting themselves to their own children this way, nor do they shy away from drawing big, exaggerated noses on westerners. Western cartoonists often caricature western noses likewise, which doesn't seem to trigger these sensitive westerners at all. It's almost as if they're not actually bothered by it--just like their East Asian counterparts. It's almost as if their outrage depends less on actual hurt feelings and more on how much of a payoff they calculate they might earn from Those in Charge Whose Opinions Actually Matter.

boomboomsubban 6y ago
It's also common for East Asianers to get plastic surgery to "westernize" their eyes, as generations of Western imperialism has warped their idea of beauty about their own eye shape. They may not be notably offended by such slit eye drawings, but they are still damaging.
- rayiner 6y ago
  That line of thinking is incredibly patronizing and paternalistic. When white people do something because they think it looks good, it’s free choice. When non-white people do something because they think it looks good, it’s the “damaging” consequence of “western imperialism.” It’s like how white people think they invented colorism, even though the preference for fairer skin in women exists throughout the pre-colonial historical record in India, Africa, and Asia. (As a dark skinned person whose half white daughter came out darker than him, I applaud the trend away from fairer skin as a beauty standard! But white people thinking they invented the beauty standard to begin with is self-centered and paternalistic: https://quillette.com/2019/02/13/the-origins-of-colourism/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/13/the-origins-of-colourism/ We had colorism in India long before white people.)

Wolfenstein98k 6y ago

>this is not stuff modern kids should be presented with Isn't that also true of violence in games and movies? Or any morally repugnant behaviour, now that we mention it? In fact, why let them read anything except the Bible?

tstrimple 6y ago
The bible is full of rape, incest and murder. It's not family friendly.

skyde 6y ago

Honest question if "eyes with slanted lines" is racist. How should my 5 years old draw a Chinese face instead.

remarkEon 6y ago

>We're not talking about Green Eggs or the Lorax here. Yet. And it's tiresome and boring to hear people pretend that any reasonable line will be drawn. History is full of racially "insensitive" things. What, are we going to make sure "modern kids" don't see that stuff too? What a nullified and pretentious existence. >have you tried the library? I have, and it turns out that the same people who think banning books is fine also run the library. Oh the irony!