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I'm surprised to see the battleground HackerNews turns into when any topic about India is mentioned. India is going through a huge cultural shift, and the erstw

I'm surprised to see the battleground HackerNews turns into when any topic about India is mentioned. India is going through a huge cultural shift, and the erstwhile liberal establishment is slowly being pushed out of their power seats by the rising Hindutva group. India is so vasly multi-faceted, multilayered, and complex, it's hard for western commentators like HNers to comment on it meaningfully without the necessary support. Most people just appeal to western democratic authority and try to see it from the lens of Dems/Reps, but it's not so simple. Just like a person living in Orissa can't meaningfully comment on say Pro 22, we can't expect Oregonians to comment meaningfully on democracy report on India. On top of that there are IT Cells, ISPR/ISI LARPers, Khalistani groups, Indian media, NYT/Wapo hit jobs, angry nationalists etc that turn the discourse into a shrill shouting match. One trend I'm noticing more and more is that India is taking a leaf out of China's books and paying less and less attention to the criticism western institutes. The next decade when India will rise in stature will make it more and more flippant about such issues. After all if any party (INC or BJP) that rules India, has enough clout and resources to enrich themselves and benefit from the rising fortunes of the country. Western commentators will be used as a classic "Us vs them" trope to further these claims.

ra7 6y ago
Couldn’t agree more with what you said. There’s definitely “us vs them” developing and that’s a direct result of western analysts looking everything through American lenses. India thinks and acts differently, and even it’s left-right political spectrum is different. It’s become a big mess of various actors trying to manipulate the discourse, exacerbated by social media.
- FlyingSnake 6y ago
  NYT/WaPo/Guardian etc by their outdated colonial mindset, are literally handing juicy materials to Indian right on a platter. India's right is more socialist than western left, and they're increasingly using the colonial biases of western media to their advantage. Indian liberals are fumbling with their responses as they've lost patronage with the loss of INC and their traditional Bhadrolok attitude.
- 64bittechie 6y ago
  NYT's depiction of India's space achievements[1] is a solid example of the shitty mindset the west has towards "third-world countries", especially India. The fact of the matter is that west fails to understand the deep and complex diversity that has existed in India for thousands of years. They've viewed India through their own lens for decades. They frequently equate Modi with Trump. While Trump (and largely Republican establishment) doesn't care about scientists (or science) and hates social security programs, Modi (and generally BJP) is for science and technology and love to implement social security programs[2]. The fact is that Modi and BJP are definitely nationalistic by the western standards but nationalism means something very different for them compared to the right wingers in America. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29502062 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29502062 [2] https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-india-a-guide-to-the-2019-elections https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-a...
dumb1224 6y ago
I see what you are saying and I would like to point out a distinction if I may about chinese vs indian approaches regarding external criticism (with my limited understanding of India as a country of course). You may see from the press that China has largely turned a blind eye to western criticism but in reality in all aspects of societal building we are adopting / importing more and more strategies from the west on a daily basis. I'm surprised when I talked to my childhood friends (some of whom are deep in administrative roles or important civil servants) their management is rapidly learning from the west (probably without them realising), may it be government bodies or private companies. The policies (at least on the paper) are getting closer and closer to what I can observe here in Europe. When I grew up in the 90s it was simply chaotic. Secondly, what I consider a major difference is that India has the ability to converse well with west whereas chinese diplomats / communication points are extremely poor and belong in an era with standards so lagging behind of modern times. Small proportion of people do read english but not to a point (especially the elites) to comprehend and incorporate western opinions well into a meaningful dialogue. All other asian countries are light years ahead of us. I'm not saying however who is better and not, all the symptoms maybe similar but there could be more nuances for a better understanding of the complex and yet inflaming situations.
- FlyingSnake 6y ago
  What I wanted to highlight is that China doesn't cower over criticisms of it due to west. No one from CCP loses sleep over some "democracy report" or an editorial in NYT. China does what it pleases and due to it's power, all the countries bow to it's economic might. With the rise of India, I'm sure we'll see such pattern. One major difference is that Indian right uses the criticism from western media to it's advantage, and helps bolster it's position in the game of West vs East.
  - dumb1224 6y ago
    I think it's clear that all societies are facing problems like this that people are prone to following populism and ideological extremes, which can be made worse by amplification of social media. It's not yet clear how to tackle that and make critical thinking really useful but not to fall into populism traps.
kamaal 6y ago
>>India is going through a huge cultural shift, and the erstwhile liberal establishment is slowly being pushed out of their power seats by the rising Hindutva group. The process has been in progress for decades since Independence. The process was accelerated since the 1980s. It's more like the cultural shift is now complete. A roll back is now impossible.
- braindead_in 6y ago
  On the contrary, the process has just begun. The cultural shift is part of the larger decolonisation process of India. The British took over power from the Marathas, but handed it over to an Anglicized elite class who were also their partner-in-crime of the colonial loot. The Hindus, who were the elite ruling class of Marathas, are now asserting their voice. The Hindus are going through a renaissance of sorts. They are coming out of the survival mode they had been in ever since the Islamic invasions that ravaged their society with thousands of temples destroyed and millions killed or sold off in slave markets of Arabia. The Hindus managed to survive 1000 years of enslavement and saw off both the Islamic invaders and European colonizers while sustaining heavy losses of land, culture, wealth and prestige. The Persians and Egyptians who were their contemporaries were not that fortunate. They are now making a comeback. As Ruchir Sharma points out [1], India is a postcolonial society which is unlike any other. We have our own, unique historical contexts, our own indigenous philosophies and value systems, and are bound together by a shared colonial trauma. And despite the hollowing out of our economy and society during centuries of imperialism, we can say with pride that our people are trying to improve their lives the best way they know how - seeking dignity, not charity, seeking empathy, not sympathy, and seeking equality, not revenge. It is going to be very exciting to see how the Hindu society evolves over the next century. Knowledge is our currency and we will flourish in this information age. [1] https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-india-a-guide-to-the-2019-elections https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-a...
  - random314 6y ago
    This is right wing pseudohistory which can be easily demonstrated to be false from the simple fact that India was at its global economic peak (20%of world gdp) under the muslim mughal empire. The hindus didn't just survive under Muslim rule, they flourished. Knowledge is definitely not the currency in India today. The government has set aside half a billion dollars for a pseudoscience ministry called Ayush. Pseudo physicians will now conduct surgery. Research institutes are being compelled to research the therapeutic benefits of cow piss. High school students are being taught pseudoscience- Indian cow milk is superior to Jersey cows milk because it contains gold!! From your comments itself, it is obvious that India is moving towards ethnocentrism and you are excited about it. This we can both agree upon.

ra7 6y ago

Couldn’t agree more with what you said. There’s definitely “us vs them” developing and that’s a direct result of western analysts looking everything through American lenses. India thinks and acts differently, and even it’s left-right political spectrum is different. It’s become a big mess of various actors trying to manipulate the discourse, exacerbated by social media.

FlyingSnake 6y ago
NYT/WaPo/Guardian etc by their outdated colonial mindset, are literally handing juicy materials to Indian right on a platter. India's right is more socialist than western left, and they're increasingly using the colonial biases of western media to their advantage. Indian liberals are fumbling with their responses as they've lost patronage with the loss of INC and their traditional Bhadrolok attitude.
64bittechie 6y ago
NYT's depiction of India's space achievements[1] is a solid example of the shitty mindset the west has towards "third-world countries", especially India. The fact of the matter is that west fails to understand the deep and complex diversity that has existed in India for thousands of years. They've viewed India through their own lens for decades. They frequently equate Modi with Trump. While Trump (and largely Republican establishment) doesn't care about scientists (or science) and hates social security programs, Modi (and generally BJP) is for science and technology and love to implement social security programs[2]. The fact is that Modi and BJP are definitely nationalistic by the western standards but nationalism means something very different for them compared to the right wingers in America. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29502062 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29502062 [2] https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-india-a-guide-to-the-2019-elections https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-a...

dumb1224 6y ago

I see what you are saying and I would like to point out a distinction if I may about chinese vs indian approaches regarding external criticism (with my limited understanding of India as a country of course). You may see from the press that China has largely turned a blind eye to western criticism but in reality in all aspects of societal building we are adopting / importing more and more strategies from the west on a daily basis. I'm surprised when I talked to my childhood friends (some of whom are deep in administrative roles or important civil servants) their management is rapidly learning from the west (probably without them realising), may it be government bodies or private companies. The policies (at least on the paper) are getting closer and closer to what I can observe here in Europe. When I grew up in the 90s it was simply chaotic. Secondly, what I consider a major difference is that India has the ability to converse well with west whereas chinese diplomats / communication points are extremely poor and belong in an era with standards so lagging behind of modern times. Small proportion of people do read english but not to a point (especially the elites) to comprehend and incorporate western opinions well into a meaningful dialogue. All other asian countries are light years ahead of us. I'm not saying however who is better and not, all the symptoms maybe similar but there could be more nuances for a better understanding of the complex and yet inflaming situations.

FlyingSnake 6y ago
What I wanted to highlight is that China doesn't cower over criticisms of it due to west. No one from CCP loses sleep over some "democracy report" or an editorial in NYT. China does what it pleases and due to it's power, all the countries bow to it's economic might. With the rise of India, I'm sure we'll see such pattern. One major difference is that Indian right uses the criticism from western media to it's advantage, and helps bolster it's position in the game of West vs East.
- dumb1224 6y ago
  I think it's clear that all societies are facing problems like this that people are prone to following populism and ideological extremes, which can be made worse by amplification of social media. It's not yet clear how to tackle that and make critical thinking really useful but not to fall into populism traps.

kamaal 6y ago

>>India is going through a huge cultural shift, and the erstwhile liberal establishment is slowly being pushed out of their power seats by the rising Hindutva group. The process has been in progress for decades since Independence. The process was accelerated since the 1980s. It's more like the cultural shift is now complete. A roll back is now impossible.

braindead_in 6y ago
On the contrary, the process has just begun. The cultural shift is part of the larger decolonisation process of India. The British took over power from the Marathas, but handed it over to an Anglicized elite class who were also their partner-in-crime of the colonial loot. The Hindus, who were the elite ruling class of Marathas, are now asserting their voice. The Hindus are going through a renaissance of sorts. They are coming out of the survival mode they had been in ever since the Islamic invasions that ravaged their society with thousands of temples destroyed and millions killed or sold off in slave markets of Arabia. The Hindus managed to survive 1000 years of enslavement and saw off both the Islamic invaders and European colonizers while sustaining heavy losses of land, culture, wealth and prestige. The Persians and Egyptians who were their contemporaries were not that fortunate. They are now making a comeback. As Ruchir Sharma points out [1], India is a postcolonial society which is unlike any other. We have our own, unique historical contexts, our own indigenous philosophies and value systems, and are bound together by a shared colonial trauma. And despite the hollowing out of our economy and society during centuries of imperialism, we can say with pride that our people are trying to improve their lives the best way they know how - seeking dignity, not charity, seeking empathy, not sympathy, and seeking equality, not revenge. It is going to be very exciting to see how the Hindu society evolves over the next century. Knowledge is our currency and we will flourish in this information age. [1] https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-about-india-a-guide-to-the-2019-elections https://swarajyamag.com/politics/what-the-media-gets-wrong-a...
- random314 6y ago
  This is right wing pseudohistory which can be easily demonstrated to be false from the simple fact that India was at its global economic peak (20%of world gdp) under the muslim mughal empire. The hindus didn't just survive under Muslim rule, they flourished. Knowledge is definitely not the currency in India today. The government has set aside half a billion dollars for a pseudoscience ministry called Ayush. Pseudo physicians will now conduct surgery. Research institutes are being compelled to research the therapeutic benefits of cow piss. High school students are being taught pseudoscience- Indian cow milk is superior to Jersey cows milk because it contains gold!! From your comments itself, it is obvious that India is moving towards ethnocentrism and you are excited about it. This we can both agree upon.