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Not in my experience. In my experience, if you give the devs leeway, they'll come up with some totally overengineered architecture with the latest tech in it (w

Not in my experience. In my experience, if you give the devs leeway, they'll come up with some totally overengineered architecture with the latest tech in it (which is great for their CVs) and will spend a lot of the time bikesheding over nonsense (e.g. killing each other PRs because "too functional" or "not functional enough"). The developers don't care about the company goals, but they care about their CVs and personal preferences regarding languages, tooling etc. Also, if they team does not deliver, at the end of the day it's their manager who gets the blame, not them - so why should they care? Basically, smart devs are repaying the psychopathy of the typical company owners with a 100% selfish behavior of their own. That's the what I've seen in the wild, not the positive scenario you're describing. Perhaps it's "late stage capitalism" in the flesh.

vesinisa 6y ago
Well I suggest you stop working with colleagues you describe as psychopaths ASAP for the sake of your own mental health. I could never work with a developer who sacrifices the company's / team's business goals for a line in their own CV. But it's indeed first and foremost the managers failing not recognizing these attributes in their team members, and not working to fix their attitude (which clearly is the underlying problem here). Imposing more process will not fix the team not caring about the product / business. If you are not up to changing jobs, I'd suggest you try openly bringing up your concerns in a retro. Unless, you actually don't care about the product yourself either?
- killtimeatwork 6y ago
  The colleagues in question are all gone now - they got better jobs thanks to the mess they've created in my project... Psychopaty is perhaps too strong a word - they're just taking care of their interests. Perhaps in the olden times they were aligned with the interest of the employer, but currently they're clearly not (my employer has just announced that they'll lay off a couple hundred of IT people are replace them with an Indian outsourcing company, purely to cut costs...). I don't care about the project either, but as a tech lead, I'm actually paid very well by the company to take care of its interests - incl. killing off any wild ideas that the devs might have. This (staying on old and boring tech that works well, but is not what will help me get the next well-paid job) will hurt my career in the long run, but my plan is to actually go FIRE within the current job, so it's not a problem. Most people don't have such plans though and hence they don't benefit from toiling for an ok wage with boring tech that gets the job done. The underlying systemic problem is of course the fact that the whole industry (at least here in Europe) is crazy about following the latest tech trends for trends sake, and thus running along on the tech treadmill is the best way to get highest compensation. In the US I believe it's different, because there joining a FAANG gets you the most money, and they mostly use custom tech anyway, so they don't care about the latest open source hits (of course, you have to leetcode instead, so it comes with its own set of problems).
  - vesinisa 6y ago
    > my employer has just announced that they'll lay off a couple hundred of IT people are replace them with an Indian outsourcing company, purely to cut costs Not one large-sized Nordic bank by any chance? ;) The flipside of using latest tech is you should have easier time hiring new people to replace the ones who left. But I am certainly not denying that hiring devs who are willing to commit to the business is a really hard problem. Companies should maybe focus this more in their hiring practices over just the technical skill profile. Good developers will learn the tech stack in the job, if they care. Also, people retention / satisfaction is pivotal in keeping the commited people on board. Doing massive outsourcings to India is certainly not a good signal to send to those who feel their skills and commitment could be appreciated elsewhere as well.
    - killtimeatwork 6y ago
      > Not one large-sized Nordic bank by any chance? ;) I will say no more ;) > The flipside of using latest tech is you should have easier time hiring new people to replace the ones who left. I've heard this argument before and it's basically a non sequitur for me. For example, there are fewer people who know the latest and greatest Scala libraries than those who know for example Java 8. The people who have learned Java 8 have not died or retired yet - they are still in industry, in large numbers, and hence it's easier and cheaper to hire them. Whereas you have to fight for the bleeding edge guys - usually by offering them high-paying contracts (which are the reason half of these guys are following the bleeding edge trends in the first place...).
  - dzonga 6y ago
    the problem exists too in the US due to large amounts of venture capital lying around. Ask yourself why many startups run on K8's yet they don't have the SRE requirements google has. Too much resume padding. Good luck, if you're a engineer trying to make things work without too much ceremony. everything is about chasing the latest and the greatest, whether it makes sense for the problem at hand or not.

vesinisa 6y ago

Well I suggest you stop working with colleagues you describe as psychopaths ASAP for the sake of your own mental health. I could never work with a developer who sacrifices the company's / team's business goals for a line in their own CV. But it's indeed first and foremost the managers failing not recognizing these attributes in their team members, and not working to fix their attitude (which clearly is the underlying problem here). Imposing more process will not fix the team not caring about the product / business. If you are not up to changing jobs, I'd suggest you try openly bringing up your concerns in a retro. Unless, you actually don't care about the product yourself either?

killtimeatwork 6y ago
The colleagues in question are all gone now - they got better jobs thanks to the mess they've created in my project... Psychopaty is perhaps too strong a word - they're just taking care of their interests. Perhaps in the olden times they were aligned with the interest of the employer, but currently they're clearly not (my employer has just announced that they'll lay off a couple hundred of IT people are replace them with an Indian outsourcing company, purely to cut costs...). I don't care about the project either, but as a tech lead, I'm actually paid very well by the company to take care of its interests - incl. killing off any wild ideas that the devs might have. This (staying on old and boring tech that works well, but is not what will help me get the next well-paid job) will hurt my career in the long run, but my plan is to actually go FIRE within the current job, so it's not a problem. Most people don't have such plans though and hence they don't benefit from toiling for an ok wage with boring tech that gets the job done. The underlying systemic problem is of course the fact that the whole industry (at least here in Europe) is crazy about following the latest tech trends for trends sake, and thus running along on the tech treadmill is the best way to get highest compensation. In the US I believe it's different, because there joining a FAANG gets you the most money, and they mostly use custom tech anyway, so they don't care about the latest open source hits (of course, you have to leetcode instead, so it comes with its own set of problems).
- vesinisa 6y ago
  > my employer has just announced that they'll lay off a couple hundred of IT people are replace them with an Indian outsourcing company, purely to cut costs Not one large-sized Nordic bank by any chance? ;) The flipside of using latest tech is you should have easier time hiring new people to replace the ones who left. But I am certainly not denying that hiring devs who are willing to commit to the business is a really hard problem. Companies should maybe focus this more in their hiring practices over just the technical skill profile. Good developers will learn the tech stack in the job, if they care. Also, people retention / satisfaction is pivotal in keeping the commited people on board. Doing massive outsourcings to India is certainly not a good signal to send to those who feel their skills and commitment could be appreciated elsewhere as well.
  - killtimeatwork 6y ago
    > Not one large-sized Nordic bank by any chance? ;) I will say no more ;) > The flipside of using latest tech is you should have easier time hiring new people to replace the ones who left. I've heard this argument before and it's basically a non sequitur for me. For example, there are fewer people who know the latest and greatest Scala libraries than those who know for example Java 8. The people who have learned Java 8 have not died or retired yet - they are still in industry, in large numbers, and hence it's easier and cheaper to hire them. Whereas you have to fight for the bleeding edge guys - usually by offering them high-paying contracts (which are the reason half of these guys are following the bleeding edge trends in the first place...).
- dzonga 6y ago
  the problem exists too in the US due to large amounts of venture capital lying around. Ask yourself why many startups run on K8's yet they don't have the SRE requirements google has. Too much resume padding. Good luck, if you're a engineer trying to make things work without too much ceremony. everything is about chasing the latest and the greatest, whether it makes sense for the problem at hand or not.