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> They want Tesla to fail so that they can profit. A more realistic take is: They think Tesla is massively overvalued and should be held accountable for fraudu

> They want Tesla to fail so that they can profit. A more realistic take is: They think Tesla is massively overvalued and should be held accountable for fraudulent corporate behaviour. > He has also been a charlatan on COVID. Kind of ironic given that Elon himself was (is?) one of the first vocal Covid deniers. Check out TC's Chartcast [1] in case you are interested in TSLAQ, beware it's a deep rabbit hole. I've previously tried to sum up Tesla's red flags here [2]. [1] https://www.buzzsprout.com/758369 https://www.buzzsprout.com/758369 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26065075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26065075

dheera 6y ago
> They think Tesla is massively overvalued > fraudulent corporate behaviour. These two things have nothing to do with each other. > and should be held accountable for Holding a company accountable should go through the courts, not personal profit. I'd be happy if short selling weren't an option. If you believe something is overvalued, stay out. You're not wanted. If you believe a company did something wrong, file a lawsuit.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  You haven't made an argument against short selling.
  - dheera 6y ago
    Pessimism is counterproductive to the long-term development of humanity and rapid deployment of electric vehicles and clean energy. Armchair pessimists don't deserve a place in the stock market. If you think Tesla is doing something wrong, either (a) go work there and fix it or (b) start your own Tesla competitor. Short selling isn't constructive.
- mercurysmessage 6y ago
  What's wrong with short selling? The only reason why people like Elon Musk don't like short selling is because they know that their companies are massively overvalued.
  - Geee 6y ago
    The problem is profiting from spreading misinformation. Tesla short-sellers run large operations that fabricate and spread lies. It's usually easier to spread misinformation than to debunk it.
    - mercurysmessage 6y ago
      And the companies don't spread misinformation? Not saying it's right in either case but companies, Tesla included aren't shining beacons of morality and truthfulness.
      - Geee 6y ago
        It's not in their interest to lie in the long term. Those companies who lie are scams and they're spotted pretty quickly (e.g. Theranos, Nikola). Elon has made some mishaps, such as 'funding secured @420' tweet, which he was punished for. Public companies have to be pretty careful in their communications. Making promises with too optimistic schedules is not lying, it's just an error in forecasting, and is common in technology.
        Pyramus 6y ago
        That couldn't be further from the truth. Theranos survived for 15 years. Wirecard 22 years. Enron 10+ years. Fraud gives you a massive competitive advantage. Not too along ago I thought of Musk as a misunderstood genius, now I'm pretty certain he knows exactly what he is doing (for the most part). If you look at all the oddities surrounding Tesla, there are clear patterns emerging. Plainsite has a good summary [1]. [1] https://www.plainsite.org/realitycheck/tsla.pdf https://www.plainsite.org/realitycheck/tsla.pdf
        Geee 6y ago
        That report is a bunch of horseshit. Lot of words without any substance. He even cherry-picked some data to "prove" that Tesla's sales are declining. Everyone can see the actual progress that Tesla and SpaceX has made. Their cars are winning awards and they're innovating and building new factories as fast as they can. Who cares if they miss a couple of estimates. SpaceX can deliver payload to orbit with much lower cost than competitors. True though that those companies survived for too long.
ggreer 6y ago
Musk has never been a covid denier. He understood that covid wasn't as dangerous as many claimed, especially for younger and healthier people. The only thing close to covid denialism that I can find is Musk's decision to resume production at Tesla's Fremont plant in defiance of Alameda county lockdown orders. This was in May of 2020 after months of failed negotiations with government officials. It's important to note that unlike Bachman, Musk had skin in the game. He asked that if the government sent cops to shut down the factory, only he be arrested.[1] The factory resumed production and nobody was arrested. A week or so later, Alameda county changed its rules to allow the factory to operate legally. 1. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 "Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me."
- Pyramus 6y ago
  Here's a selection of tweets for you, by a celebrity many still trust and consider a "scientific genius": @elonmusk Mar 6, 2020 The coronavirus panic is dumb https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528 @elonmusk Mar 19, 2020 Based on current trends, probably close to zero new cases in US too by end of April https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960 @elonmusk Mar 19, 2020 Kids are essentially immune, but elderly with existing conditions are vulnerable. Family gatherings with close contact between kids & grandparents probably most risky. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240758710646878208 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240758710646878208 @elonmusk Jun 29, 2020 There are a ridiculous number of false positive C19 tests, in some cases ~50%. False positives scale linearly with # of tests. This is a big part of why C19 positive tests are going up while hospitalizations & mortality are declining. Anyone who tests positive should retest. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1277507826529660928 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1277507826529660928
  - ggreer 6y ago
    The only screw-up I see is his prediction that the US would conquer the spread by the end of April. All the other info is pretty accurate, especially considering how little we knew back in March. Compared to most authorities and experts, he did a pretty good job. Remember two weeks to flatten the curve? Remember when the official line was that masks don't work?[1][2][3] Remember when the WHO said that travel bans are a bad idea?[4] Musk was calling the panic dumb at the same time as the WHO was saying, "Our greatest enemy right now is not the coronavirus itself. It’s fear, rumours and stigma."[5] If we judge him by the same standards as every major institution (media, governments, NGOs), Musk is far less deserving of criticism. And unlike those institutions, Musk never claimed to be an expert on the topic. 1. https://twitter.com/WHOWPRO/status/1243171683067777024 https://twitter.com/WHOWPRO/status/1243171683067777024 2. https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1244661916535930886 https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1244661916535930886 3. https://web.archive.org/web/20200312104152if_/https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://web.archive.org/web/20200312104152if_/https://twitte... 4. https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1224734993966096387 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1224734993966096387 5. https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1233418231261646849 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1233418231261646849

dheera 6y ago

> They think Tesla is massively overvalued > fraudulent corporate behaviour. These two things have nothing to do with each other. > and should be held accountable for Holding a company accountable should go through the courts, not personal profit. I'd be happy if short selling weren't an option. If you believe something is overvalued, stay out. You're not wanted. If you believe a company did something wrong, file a lawsuit.

alisonkisk 6y ago
You haven't made an argument against short selling.
- dheera 6y ago
  Pessimism is counterproductive to the long-term development of humanity and rapid deployment of electric vehicles and clean energy. Armchair pessimists don't deserve a place in the stock market. If you think Tesla is doing something wrong, either (a) go work there and fix it or (b) start your own Tesla competitor. Short selling isn't constructive.
mercurysmessage 6y ago
What's wrong with short selling? The only reason why people like Elon Musk don't like short selling is because they know that their companies are massively overvalued.
- Geee 6y ago
  The problem is profiting from spreading misinformation. Tesla short-sellers run large operations that fabricate and spread lies. It's usually easier to spread misinformation than to debunk it.
  - mercurysmessage 6y ago
    And the companies don't spread misinformation? Not saying it's right in either case but companies, Tesla included aren't shining beacons of morality and truthfulness.
    - Geee 6y ago
      It's not in their interest to lie in the long term. Those companies who lie are scams and they're spotted pretty quickly (e.g. Theranos, Nikola). Elon has made some mishaps, such as 'funding secured @420' tweet, which he was punished for. Public companies have to be pretty careful in their communications. Making promises with too optimistic schedules is not lying, it's just an error in forecasting, and is common in technology.
      - Pyramus 6y ago
        That couldn't be further from the truth. Theranos survived for 15 years. Wirecard 22 years. Enron 10+ years. Fraud gives you a massive competitive advantage. Not too along ago I thought of Musk as a misunderstood genius, now I'm pretty certain he knows exactly what he is doing (for the most part). If you look at all the oddities surrounding Tesla, there are clear patterns emerging. Plainsite has a good summary [1]. [1] https://www.plainsite.org/realitycheck/tsla.pdf https://www.plainsite.org/realitycheck/tsla.pdf
        Geee 6y ago
        That report is a bunch of horseshit. Lot of words without any substance. He even cherry-picked some data to "prove" that Tesla's sales are declining. Everyone can see the actual progress that Tesla and SpaceX has made. Their cars are winning awards and they're innovating and building new factories as fast as they can. Who cares if they miss a couple of estimates. SpaceX can deliver payload to orbit with much lower cost than competitors. True though that those companies survived for too long.

ggreer 6y ago

Musk has never been a covid denier. He understood that covid wasn't as dangerous as many claimed, especially for younger and healthier people. The only thing close to covid denialism that I can find is Musk's decision to resume production at Tesla's Fremont plant in defiance of Alameda county lockdown orders. This was in May of 2020 after months of failed negotiations with government officials. It's important to note that unlike Bachman, Musk had skin in the game. He asked that if the government sent cops to shut down the factory, only he be arrested.[1] The factory resumed production and nobody was arrested. A week or so later, Alameda county changed its rules to allow the factory to operate legally. 1. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259945593805221891 "Tesla is restarting production today against Alameda County rules. I will be on the line with everyone else. If anyone is arrested, I ask that it only be me."

Pyramus 6y ago
Here's a selection of tweets for you, by a celebrity many still trust and consider a "scientific genius": @elonmusk Mar 6, 2020 The coronavirus panic is dumb https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1236029449042198528 @elonmusk Mar 19, 2020 Based on current trends, probably close to zero new cases in US too by end of April https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960 @elonmusk Mar 19, 2020 Kids are essentially immune, but elderly with existing conditions are vulnerable. Family gatherings with close contact between kids & grandparents probably most risky. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240758710646878208 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240758710646878208 @elonmusk Jun 29, 2020 There are a ridiculous number of false positive C19 tests, in some cases ~50%. False positives scale linearly with # of tests. This is a big part of why C19 positive tests are going up while hospitalizations & mortality are declining. Anyone who tests positive should retest. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1277507826529660928 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1277507826529660928
- ggreer 6y ago
  The only screw-up I see is his prediction that the US would conquer the spread by the end of April. All the other info is pretty accurate, especially considering how little we knew back in March. Compared to most authorities and experts, he did a pretty good job. Remember two weeks to flatten the curve? Remember when the official line was that masks don't work?[1][2][3] Remember when the WHO said that travel bans are a bad idea?[4] Musk was calling the panic dumb at the same time as the WHO was saying, "Our greatest enemy right now is not the coronavirus itself. It’s fear, rumours and stigma."[5] If we judge him by the same standards as every major institution (media, governments, NGOs), Musk is far less deserving of criticism. And unlike those institutions, Musk never claimed to be an expert on the topic. 1. https://twitter.com/WHOWPRO/status/1243171683067777024 https://twitter.com/WHOWPRO/status/1243171683067777024 2. https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1244661916535930886 https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1244661916535930886 3. https://web.archive.org/web/20200312104152if_/https://twitter.com/Surgeon_General/status/1233725785283932160 https://web.archive.org/web/20200312104152if_/https://twitte... 4. https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1224734993966096387 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1224734993966096387 5. https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1233418231261646849 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1233418231261646849