8 ms·

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). I once stood in a book shop (teenager, time to look at books but not enough money to buy them) and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. Providing context is good, but frankly also really difficult and why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive.

egeozcan 6y ago
I'm a Turkish immigrant in Germany. I've read that book in a country it wasn't banned and I didn't turn out to be a neonazi (Yeah, Turkish "neonazis" who don't like Kurds and Syrians is a thing, unfortunately). It actually helped me fortify my arguments against them. That's why I also used to read many extreme right-wing sites, before they were all erased from the surface of the internet (and I refuse to go "deep"). Also, do you think that skinhead became a better person by not being able to buy that book? I don't think so. Something for the parent comment: I also don't like the downvote hype here when you say anything pro-censorship. We get it already, let people discuss without making them #eee.
- wirrbel 6y ago
  I replied to a comment that said that all book-bans are would be evaluated to be harmful/negative in retrospect. I don't think that this general statement is true and brought up the ban of Mein Kampf as a counterexample. Who knows how harmful Mein Kampf publishing in Germany could have been from 1950-2000, but surely, there was no harm in having it banned. You must understand that in post-war Germany the threat of fascism still lingered, with successor-parties to Adolph Hitler's NSDAP even managing to get parliament seats in the first parliamentary elections, etc.
  - egeozcan 6y ago
    I mean, we still have it with AfD, no? I think it's a given that some portion of the population will support fascist parties. IMHO, how much total support they achieve has little to do with the books people can read, but much to do with socioeconomic balances (global and national).
    - wirrbel 6y ago
      Banning one book is of course not a guarantee and parties like the AfD do become popular not for a monocausal event... Funnilly enough, I think a main driver for AfDs formation as an neoliberal-turned-alt-right party are the books by Tilo Sarrazin and their public discussion in the both-sides style (often blatantly ignoring the core racist message correlating genetics to intellect, etc.). In that respect, I think one can make an argument that certain "cancelling" (refusal to publish/discuss/sell a book by private persons or companies/platforms) that is not censorship (prohibiting a book by the state) surely is something a society must be willing to perform in order to at least not foster certain ideas within the group of people among them, that is susceptible to fascism.
nmfisher 6y ago
I read Mein Kamp when I was younger (in Australia) out of sheer curiosity, and found it to be rambling, poorly written junk, bordering on incoherent. If you came away enlightened, you probably already held very strong Nazi tendencies before you even opened the book.
- major505 6y ago
  Nazi and hardcore communist propaganda have appeal to lost people, who have no place in the world, and usually are surrounded by other sources of bad influence. Is the same with people who are attracted to be part of street gangs, and other stuff like that. They are already part of a broken family, and community to end up with this kind of behaviour.
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    I remember thru hiking on the AT and finding tracts distributed by a local quasi-cult. It was astonishing to see how they seemed to know exactly what I was thinking about the shallowness and consumerism of society, things like that. Some people pay attention to the things said by those they aim to control, and then feed that back to them. I could literally feel it tugging at my brain. It was one of the most visceral “I’m dodging a bullet right now” feelings I’ve ever had. Critical thinking is a critical skill! Also on the point of gangs, there’s a documentary that shines a great light on how people fall into it, and on the other side of the coin, parts of law enforcement: The House I Live In.
CodeGlitch 6y ago
Perhaps they would have read the book - realised it's complete trash and realised the error of their ways?
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  perhaps it's just anecdata, but none of the skinheads I've ever known seemed to be especially good at evaluating literary quality.
MrGilbert 6y ago
> Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). For me, the original "Mein Kampf" was a rather boring book to read. Since 2016, it is possible to buy a commented version of this book. It's available with the ISBN 9783981405231 for 59 € in Germany.
- 4ggr0 6y ago
  I really wanna buy that to see what exactly Mister A.H. had in his mind. I just wonder if me ordering it puts me on some sort of blacklist... (half /s)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Order it over Tor to some abandoned building, and pay with Bitcoin. Then you'll end up on all the blacklists :). Crazy times we live in.
    - drdeca 6y ago
      Surely one should pay in like, monero or zcash or something? Though, really, why not just read the text through tor?
    - 4ggr0 6y ago
      I'm probably already on some list for trying to order psychedelic mushrooms online and getting caught by customs. Who would've thought that ordering drugs over the clearnet, paying with my personal bank account and sending it to my real address is a bad idea.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    It's really not worth your time and effort, he was a terrible writer. It's 700+ pages of a mix of boring memories and complains about everything, with plain racism and antisemitism throughout. The book has this kind-of-mystic aura of a "rebellious, banned book too dangerous for people to read" but it's really just a complete trash and should be forgotten (outside of historian scholars who may have to read it, but I feel sorry for them).
kstenerud 6y ago
Upvoted you to counter the downvotes since this actually does add to the discussion. It's important to remember that the power of Mein Kampf lies in its status as a symbol, not its actual contents. Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf, nor have they ever (just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers). It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power via blaming and oppression of minority groups, not the actual words themselves. People remember only simple things, and like simple reasoning and solutions, which is what made him popular in the first place. So the banning of this book was an attack on the symbol (and only incidentally on the literature), and the banning of the symbol is of questionable value since it basically causes a Streisand effect. Banning a symbol only adds to its power. It might have been better to just ignore it, and instead focus on prosecuting the actual hate crimes themselves.
- runsWphotons 6y ago
  Lots of non-preachers read the Bible. Less people read mein Kampf but I know of some (some friends at school, some teachers at uni, some people on YouTube). I think Dr. Seuss was a bit of a symbol before, but now is definitely a symbol. I don't think your distinction here is very clean and your comment is elitist.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    I've read Mein Kampf. No, I didn't turn into Nazi. Very interesting insight into a mind of a very misguided person.
    - major505 6y ago
      I tried to read it. I got bored half the way, and decided to read another book,a biograph of Billie Holiday.
  - kstenerud 6y ago
    > Lots of non-preachers read the Bible. I was engaging in hyperbole to illustrate a point, not making an absolute statement. Why do you think my comment is elitist?
cygx 6y ago
Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold Not as such. Rather, the owner of the copyright - the state of Bavaria, where Hitler had his formal residence - decided not to allow reprints. The copyright expired in 2016, and a new, commented edition has been published which Germans can freely buy for 60€ in bookstores of their choice, including Amazon. However, distribution for reasons other than educational purposes is potentially 'Volksverhetzung' and hence can be illegal depending on circumstances. But again, this is not a blanket ban on sale (except in case of minors as it's considered 'harmful to young persons'). This had already been tested in court in 1979, when the Bundesgerichtshof ruled you could legally own and sell historical copies of the book.
- hef19898 6y ago
  It was not on sale until 2016 because Bavaria refused to publish it. When the copyright expired, they published a commented version. And as far as I know, that version is in free circulation. Using it to preach would be a potential crime so.
- wirrbel 6y ago
  I seem to have put up a honeypot for nitpicking with my reply (fun fact: I mention that copyright law was employed for that in my original reply)..
dgellow 6y ago
Germany, the country, never banned the book. Instead the right owner, the state of Bavaria, decided to stop its distribution (until 2016 when the copyright expired and a commented version has been published).
- wirrbel 6y ago
  indeed, I even mention this in my comment.
blackbrokkoli 6y ago
Fun anecdote, but what is your larger point? Do you think the skinheads then went on to join a moderate left party because they could actually read their party program? At the point where you are already committed to an ideology to the point you drastically alter your appearance, you are hardly going to be deterred by a slightly harder to get book. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone is going to turn Nazis by reading Mein Kampf. The book is hardly relevant today and a mediocre read at best, so the only ones that will make it to the end are academics, people seeking context or people that are already committed to Nazism anyway.
- wirrbel 6y ago
  > Fun anecdote, but what is your larger point? I replied to a comment that said that all book-bans would be evaluated to be harmful/net-negative in retrospect. I don't think that this general statement is true and brought up the ban of Mein Kampf as a counterexample. As simple as that.
major505 6y ago
it isnt like not reading the book prevented those kids to be skinheads. Is more like bad company and shit parenting.
macspoofing 6y ago
Who are you delegating the responsibility to for deciding what you should and should not be allowed to read? Are you comfortable with an unpaid 20-something intern doing the deciding for you? Because, for example, that's who staffs a lot of 'fact checking' sites that Facebook then uses to keep content from you. How about a fundamentalist Christian making those decisions for you? >and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. They went away eh? I take it Neo-nazism has been solved in Germany? And how, prey tell, did they become skinheads without reading the book? >why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive. Who says these books weren't inclusive? They were read by hundreds of millions of children over the decades and translated into many languages. Show me the harm. It's also distasteful that people who have read and enjoyed these books are now willing to deprive future generations of children from the same enjoyment ... even when it clearly did not hurt them.
ptero 6y ago
I am not sure that banning of Mein Kampf has a long-term benefit. If it has not been banned it would likely fade into obscurity instead of becoming a symbol. As a counter-datapoint I grew up in a country that effectively banned religion. One could go to prison for selling a Bible -- subversive literature, yada yada. It worked for a while, but you cannot completely cut the flow of information from the world outside; so sooner or later people who did not have a strong opinion either way see such bans as unquestionably evil. And very soon after that the majority believes that the main reason for such bans is the inability to argue against the banned literature on merits. I suspect that instead of letting the subject fade into obscurity such bans often provide the best advertising the topic can get. My 2c.
- wirrbel 6y ago
  Its availailable nowadays (they used copyright law to ban the distribution so that no precedent for censorship is created). But back in the day if you really wanted to read it you would mail-order it from abroad.

egeozcan 6y ago

I'm a Turkish immigrant in Germany. I've read that book in a country it wasn't banned and I didn't turn out to be a neonazi (Yeah, Turkish "neonazis" who don't like Kurds and Syrians is a thing, unfortunately). It actually helped me fortify my arguments against them. That's why I also used to read many extreme right-wing sites, before they were all erased from the surface of the internet (and I refuse to go "deep"). Also, do you think that skinhead became a better person by not being able to buy that book? I don't think so. Something for the parent comment: I also don't like the downvote hype here when you say anything pro-censorship. We get it already, let people discuss without making them #eee.

wirrbel 6y ago
I replied to a comment that said that all book-bans are would be evaluated to be harmful/negative in retrospect. I don't think that this general statement is true and brought up the ban of Mein Kampf as a counterexample. Who knows how harmful Mein Kampf publishing in Germany could have been from 1950-2000, but surely, there was no harm in having it banned. You must understand that in post-war Germany the threat of fascism still lingered, with successor-parties to Adolph Hitler's NSDAP even managing to get parliament seats in the first parliamentary elections, etc.
- egeozcan 6y ago
  I mean, we still have it with AfD, no? I think it's a given that some portion of the population will support fascist parties. IMHO, how much total support they achieve has little to do with the books people can read, but much to do with socioeconomic balances (global and national).
  - wirrbel 6y ago
    Banning one book is of course not a guarantee and parties like the AfD do become popular not for a monocausal event... Funnilly enough, I think a main driver for AfDs formation as an neoliberal-turned-alt-right party are the books by Tilo Sarrazin and their public discussion in the both-sides style (often blatantly ignoring the core racist message correlating genetics to intellect, etc.). In that respect, I think one can make an argument that certain "cancelling" (refusal to publish/discuss/sell a book by private persons or companies/platforms) that is not censorship (prohibiting a book by the state) surely is something a society must be willing to perform in order to at least not foster certain ideas within the group of people among them, that is susceptible to fascism.

nmfisher 6y ago

I read Mein Kamp when I was younger (in Australia) out of sheer curiosity, and found it to be rambling, poorly written junk, bordering on incoherent. If you came away enlightened, you probably already held very strong Nazi tendencies before you even opened the book.

major505 6y ago
Nazi and hardcore communist propaganda have appeal to lost people, who have no place in the world, and usually are surrounded by other sources of bad influence. Is the same with people who are attracted to be part of street gangs, and other stuff like that. They are already part of a broken family, and community to end up with this kind of behaviour.
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  I remember thru hiking on the AT and finding tracts distributed by a local quasi-cult. It was astonishing to see how they seemed to know exactly what I was thinking about the shallowness and consumerism of society, things like that. Some people pay attention to the things said by those they aim to control, and then feed that back to them. I could literally feel it tugging at my brain. It was one of the most visceral “I’m dodging a bullet right now” feelings I’ve ever had. Critical thinking is a critical skill! Also on the point of gangs, there’s a documentary that shines a great light on how people fall into it, and on the other side of the coin, parts of law enforcement: The House I Live In.

CodeGlitch 6y ago

Perhaps they would have read the book - realised it's complete trash and realised the error of their ways?

bryanrasmussen 6y ago
perhaps it's just anecdata, but none of the skinheads I've ever known seemed to be especially good at evaluating literary quality.

MrGilbert 6y ago

> Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold (used copyright law to do that). For me, the original "Mein Kampf" was a rather boring book to read. Since 2016, it is possible to buy a commented version of this book. It's available with the ISBN 9783981405231 for 59 € in Germany.

4ggr0 6y ago
I really wanna buy that to see what exactly Mister A.H. had in his mind. I just wonder if me ordering it puts me on some sort of blacklist... (half /s)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Order it over Tor to some abandoned building, and pay with Bitcoin. Then you'll end up on all the blacklists :). Crazy times we live in.
  - drdeca 6y ago
    Surely one should pay in like, monero or zcash or something? Though, really, why not just read the text through tor?
  - 4ggr0 6y ago
    I'm probably already on some list for trying to order psychedelic mushrooms online and getting caught by customs. Who would've thought that ordering drugs over the clearnet, paying with my personal bank account and sending it to my real address is a bad idea.
- dgellow 6y ago
  It's really not worth your time and effort, he was a terrible writer. It's 700+ pages of a mix of boring memories and complains about everything, with plain racism and antisemitism throughout. The book has this kind-of-mystic aura of a "rebellious, banned book too dangerous for people to read" but it's really just a complete trash and should be forgotten (outside of historian scholars who may have to read it, but I feel sorry for them).

kstenerud 6y ago

Upvoted you to counter the downvotes since this actually does add to the discussion. It's important to remember that the power of Mein Kampf lies in its status as a symbol, not its actual contents. Nobody actually reads Mein Kampf, nor have they ever (just like nobody actually reads the Bible unless they're actual preachers). It was (and still is) about the personality cult of a strong man and his message of power via blaming and oppression of minority groups, not the actual words themselves. People remember only simple things, and like simple reasoning and solutions, which is what made him popular in the first place. So the banning of this book was an attack on the symbol (and only incidentally on the literature), and the banning of the symbol is of questionable value since it basically causes a Streisand effect. Banning a symbol only adds to its power. It might have been better to just ignore it, and instead focus on prosecuting the actual hate crimes themselves.

runsWphotons 6y ago
Lots of non-preachers read the Bible. Less people read mein Kampf but I know of some (some friends at school, some teachers at uni, some people on YouTube). I think Dr. Seuss was a bit of a symbol before, but now is definitely a symbol. I don't think your distinction here is very clean and your comment is elitist.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  I've read Mein Kampf. No, I didn't turn into Nazi. Very interesting insight into a mind of a very misguided person.
  - major505 6y ago
    I tried to read it. I got bored half the way, and decided to read another book,a biograph of Billie Holiday.
- kstenerud 6y ago
  > Lots of non-preachers read the Bible. I was engaging in hyperbole to illustrate a point, not making an absolute statement. Why do you think my comment is elitist?

cygx 6y ago

Germany here, we banned Mein Kampf from being sold Not as such. Rather, the owner of the copyright - the state of Bavaria, where Hitler had his formal residence - decided not to allow reprints. The copyright expired in 2016, and a new, commented edition has been published which Germans can freely buy for 60€ in bookstores of their choice, including Amazon. However, distribution for reasons other than educational purposes is potentially 'Volksverhetzung' and hence can be illegal depending on circumstances. But again, this is not a blanket ban on sale (except in case of minors as it's considered 'harmful to young persons'). This had already been tested in court in 1979, when the Bundesgerichtshof ruled you could legally own and sell historical copies of the book.

hef19898 6y ago
It was not on sale until 2016 because Bavaria refused to publish it. When the copyright expired, they published a commented version. And as far as I know, that version is in free circulation. Using it to preach would be a potential crime so.
wirrbel 6y ago
I seem to have put up a honeypot for nitpicking with my reply (fun fact: I mention that copyright law was employed for that in my original reply)..

dgellow 6y ago

Germany, the country, never banned the book. Instead the right owner, the state of Bavaria, decided to stop its distribution (until 2016 when the copyright expired and a commented version has been published).

wirrbel 6y ago
indeed, I even mention this in my comment.

blackbrokkoli 6y ago

Fun anecdote, but what is your larger point? Do you think the skinheads then went on to join a moderate left party because they could actually read their party program? At the point where you are already committed to an ideology to the point you drastically alter your appearance, you are hardly going to be deterred by a slightly harder to get book. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone is going to turn Nazis by reading Mein Kampf. The book is hardly relevant today and a mediocre read at best, so the only ones that will make it to the end are academics, people seeking context or people that are already committed to Nazism anyway.

wirrbel 6y ago
> Fun anecdote, but what is your larger point? I replied to a comment that said that all book-bans would be evaluated to be harmful/net-negative in retrospect. I don't think that this general statement is true and brought up the ban of Mein Kampf as a counterexample. As simple as that.

major505 6y ago

it isnt like not reading the book prevented those kids to be skinheads. Is more like bad company and shit parenting.

macspoofing 6y ago

Who are you delegating the responsibility to for deciding what you should and should not be allowed to read? Are you comfortable with an unpaid 20-something intern doing the deciding for you? Because, for example, that's who staffs a lot of 'fact checking' sites that Facebook then uses to keep content from you. How about a fundamentalist Christian making those decisions for you? >and some skindheads wanted to buy it, it wasn't available. They went away. They went away eh? I take it Neo-nazism has been solved in Germany? And how, prey tell, did they become skinheads without reading the book? >why not just provide newer childrens books that are more inclusive. Who says these books weren't inclusive? They were read by hundreds of millions of children over the decades and translated into many languages. Show me the harm. It's also distasteful that people who have read and enjoyed these books are now willing to deprive future generations of children from the same enjoyment ... even when it clearly did not hurt them.

ptero 6y ago

I am not sure that banning of Mein Kampf has a long-term benefit. If it has not been banned it would likely fade into obscurity instead of becoming a symbol. As a counter-datapoint I grew up in a country that effectively banned religion. One could go to prison for selling a Bible -- subversive literature, yada yada. It worked for a while, but you cannot completely cut the flow of information from the world outside; so sooner or later people who did not have a strong opinion either way see such bans as unquestionably evil. And very soon after that the majority believes that the main reason for such bans is the inability to argue against the banned literature on merits. I suspect that instead of letting the subject fade into obscurity such bans often provide the best advertising the topic can get. My 2c.

wirrbel 6y ago
Its availailable nowadays (they used copyright law to ban the distribution so that no precedent for censorship is created). But back in the day if you really wanted to read it you would mail-order it from abroad.