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It doesn't lead to more deaths. See Tesla for proof. This is a super bad take.

by spullara 6y ago

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
The stats I’ve seen quoted about Tesla are super misleading and not at all apples to apples comparisons.
totalZero 6y ago
https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/
- vletal 6y ago
  Have you mentioned how sparse the autopilot claimed column is? And how even sparser the verified autopilot is? Seems like the authors are trying to inflate the total numbers very hard.
  - madamelic 6y ago
    Not to mention the spreadsheet admits Autopilot was released in 2015 but they are still including deaths from 2013. This can't be more blatant.
    - FireBeyond 6y ago
      Autopilot might not be around, but up until very recently Tesla refused to participate in a lot of auto safety testing saying that they believed the testing regime was "flawed". I have no issue with keeping track of auto deaths from a company who is claiming that their vehicles are safe while preventing anything but the legal minimum necessary tests from occurring.
- spullara 6y ago
  Ok, reduce that to where autopilot is engaged.
- ggreer 6y ago
  It should be noted that that site is run by a group of pseudonymous people who do not hide the fact that they have been shorting Tesla for years. They count every death involving a Tesla. If someone jumps in front of a manually piloted Tesla and is run over before the driver can react, it is added to the spreadsheet. They’re holding the company to an impossible standard. Moreover, they don't actually care about reducing deaths involving Tesla vehicles. They want Tesla to fail so that they can profit. It’s a purely selfish act. The most prominent member of the TSLAQ people and (IIRC) the first to publicize a spreadsheet of Tesla deaths is Elon Bachman (a pseudonym). He has also been a charlatan on COVID. A year ago he said, “After 4 months of white hot Coronavirus panic, the disaster is visible everywhere except in the data. Total deaths, rounded to the nearest percent, remain 0% of annual flu deaths, and serious cases are falling”[1] I tried to bet him up to $1,000 that US COVID deaths would exceed 25,000 by the end of 2020.[2] He ignored me and continued to deny the harm caused by the disease. One simply cannot trust anything he’s involved in. 1. https://twitter.com/ElonBachman/status/1237030292340314112 https://twitter.com/ElonBachman/status/1237030292340314112 2. https://twitter.com/ggreer/status/1237164317142736896 https://twitter.com/ggreer/status/1237164317142736896
  - Pyramus 6y ago
    > They want Tesla to fail so that they can profit. A more realistic take is: They think Tesla is massively overvalued and should be held accountable for fraudulent corporate behaviour. > He has also been a charlatan on COVID. Kind of ironic given that Elon himself was (is?) one of the first vocal Covid deniers. Check out TC's Chartcast [1] in case you are interested in TSLAQ, beware it's a deep rabbit hole. I've previously tried to sum up Tesla's red flags here [2]. [1] https://www.buzzsprout.com/758369 https://www.buzzsprout.com/758369 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26065075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26065075
    - dheera 6y ago
      > They think Tesla is massively overvalued > fraudulent corporate behaviour. These two things have nothing to do with each other. > and should be held accountable for Holding a company accountable should go through the courts, not personal profit. I'd be happy if short selling weren't an option. If you believe something is overvalued, stay out. You're not wanted. If you believe a company did something wrong, file a lawsuit.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  That's an interesting table. I would say that it reinforces the case that Autopilot (actually labelled Autosteer in the UI of my 2015 Model S) is actually not dangerous. I presume that the aim of the site is the opposite though.
cgriswald 6y ago
The issue isn’t whether having the technology saves more lives than not having the technology. The issue is whether, given the technology, the marketing creates a perception that results in unsafe usage of the technology, costing lives.
kaba0 6y ago
It’s is easy, even almost trivial to drive long hours on almost nothing happens freeways. We don’t have any sort of statistics on the dangerous close encounters, and on whether these remain close encounters with teslas.
- jiofih 6y ago
  We have all sorts of statistics, every car maker keeps track of disengagements and events. What are you talking about?
  - kaba0 6y ago
    Accidents per miles is not too informative. For example do teslas fair better than an average human driver on eg. someone running a red in front of the car? On a suddenly overturned car on the freeway? Do we have enough data to answer these questions?
    - jiofih 6y ago
      I don’t understand this kind of question. Obviously you need some statistical measure to compare safety, and incidents per mile (or vehicle years, or hours driven) is an accurate way to estimate accident rates. All we care about is that on average it crashes less than human drivers. If there are specific conditions where it fares worse those would be pretty obvious to address, and naturally the odds of when crashing the situation being weirder than usual is a given if safety improves for the average case. That aside, the answer to the first one is yes. Because of sonar and the cameras, a Tesla can see traffic two or three cars ahead and will initiate braking way earlier than a human would in the case of someone else running a red light - there a few videos of this exact situation available in YouTube. As for the second, probably not enough data, but in absolute numbers humans are responsible for nearly al of those cases so far, they happen weekly. By the way, the overturned truck was not a fatal accident - the car triggered emergency braking and the driver came out without a scratch. The fatal one was a couple years ago when a Model S ran under a white truck making an unsafe u-turn.
      - 6y ago
swarnie_ 6y ago
The issue is when there is a crash or a death could that situation have been avoided if the driver was looking ahead with two hands on the wheel, like you would in any other car without the marketing hype. I've seen more then enough crashes and deaths in Telsas that were perfectly avoidable providing the driver wasn't watching their ipad.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  Really? I've been driving for over forty years (about 15k km per year) and I have never seen a death involving any car let alone the relatively rare Tesla. I've seen emergency vehicles attending a crash perhaps once or twice a year but never seen the crash occur. In fact the only ones I have personal first hand experience of is the time I rear ended a car, the two times that I was rear ended, and the time I slid off the road on an icy corner. All three rear ending events were relatively low speed incidents (under 30 km/h) and would quite likely have been mitigated or even completely avoided if the cars in question had had automatic emergency braking. The icy corner was my own fault for not thinking ahead. So, to me, your statement, without some more context, sounds like an exaggeration.
  - swarnie_ 6y ago
    I too have been driving some some time now but we have this thing called the internet, where you can see and share information. Lemme help you out friend - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+autopilot+crash https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+autopilot...
    - kwhitefoot 6y ago
      So you didn't mean: "I've seen more then enough crashes and deaths in Telsas" you meant: "I have heard about .." or "I have seen accounts of .." Those are not quite the same thing.
shafyy 6y ago
I'm not sure why you are going downvoted, this is true.
FireBeyond 6y ago
Tesla's miles have the advantage of being inherently autopilot capable, and turning off when things get dicey for it. Human drivers do not have those advantage. So Tesla is comparing drivers in situations where AP doesn't even try to drive the vehicle because it couldn't. This is amazingly misleading. And Tesla knows it.

It doesn't lead to more deaths. See Tesla for proof. This is a super bad take.

6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago

The stats I’ve seen quoted about Tesla are super misleading and not at all apples to apples comparisons.

totalZero 6y ago

https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/

vletal 6y ago
Have you mentioned how sparse the autopilot claimed column is? And how even sparser the verified autopilot is? Seems like the authors are trying to inflate the total numbers very hard.
- madamelic 6y ago
  Not to mention the spreadsheet admits Autopilot was released in 2015 but they are still including deaths from 2013. This can't be more blatant.
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    Autopilot might not be around, but up until very recently Tesla refused to participate in a lot of auto safety testing saying that they believed the testing regime was "flawed". I have no issue with keeping track of auto deaths from a company who is claiming that their vehicles are safe while preventing anything but the legal minimum necessary tests from occurring.
spullara 6y ago
Ok, reduce that to where autopilot is engaged.
ggreer 6y ago
It should be noted that that site is run by a group of pseudonymous people who do not hide the fact that they have been shorting Tesla for years. They count every death involving a Tesla. If someone jumps in front of a manually piloted Tesla and is run over before the driver can react, it is added to the spreadsheet. They’re holding the company to an impossible standard. Moreover, they don't actually care about reducing deaths involving Tesla vehicles. They want Tesla to fail so that they can profit. It’s a purely selfish act. The most prominent member of the TSLAQ people and (IIRC) the first to publicize a spreadsheet of Tesla deaths is Elon Bachman (a pseudonym). He has also been a charlatan on COVID. A year ago he said, “After 4 months of white hot Coronavirus panic, the disaster is visible everywhere except in the data. Total deaths, rounded to the nearest percent, remain 0% of annual flu deaths, and serious cases are falling”[1] I tried to bet him up to $1,000 that US COVID deaths would exceed 25,000 by the end of 2020.[2] He ignored me and continued to deny the harm caused by the disease. One simply cannot trust anything he’s involved in. 1. https://twitter.com/ElonBachman/status/1237030292340314112 https://twitter.com/ElonBachman/status/1237030292340314112 2. https://twitter.com/ggreer/status/1237164317142736896 https://twitter.com/ggreer/status/1237164317142736896
- Pyramus 6y ago
  > They want Tesla to fail so that they can profit. A more realistic take is: They think Tesla is massively overvalued and should be held accountable for fraudulent corporate behaviour. > He has also been a charlatan on COVID. Kind of ironic given that Elon himself was (is?) one of the first vocal Covid deniers. Check out TC's Chartcast [1] in case you are interested in TSLAQ, beware it's a deep rabbit hole. I've previously tried to sum up Tesla's red flags here [2]. [1] https://www.buzzsprout.com/758369 https://www.buzzsprout.com/758369 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26065075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26065075
  - dheera 6y ago
    > They think Tesla is massively overvalued > fraudulent corporate behaviour. These two things have nothing to do with each other. > and should be held accountable for Holding a company accountable should go through the courts, not personal profit. I'd be happy if short selling weren't an option. If you believe something is overvalued, stay out. You're not wanted. If you believe a company did something wrong, file a lawsuit.
kwhitefoot 6y ago
That's an interesting table. I would say that it reinforces the case that Autopilot (actually labelled Autosteer in the UI of my 2015 Model S) is actually not dangerous. I presume that the aim of the site is the opposite though.

cgriswald 6y ago

The issue isn’t whether having the technology saves more lives than not having the technology. The issue is whether, given the technology, the marketing creates a perception that results in unsafe usage of the technology, costing lives.

kaba0 6y ago

It’s is easy, even almost trivial to drive long hours on almost nothing happens freeways. We don’t have any sort of statistics on the dangerous close encounters, and on whether these remain close encounters with teslas.

jiofih 6y ago
We have all sorts of statistics, every car maker keeps track of disengagements and events. What are you talking about?
- kaba0 6y ago
  Accidents per miles is not too informative. For example do teslas fair better than an average human driver on eg. someone running a red in front of the car? On a suddenly overturned car on the freeway? Do we have enough data to answer these questions?
  - jiofih 6y ago
    I don’t understand this kind of question. Obviously you need some statistical measure to compare safety, and incidents per mile (or vehicle years, or hours driven) is an accurate way to estimate accident rates. All we care about is that on average it crashes less than human drivers. If there are specific conditions where it fares worse those would be pretty obvious to address, and naturally the odds of when crashing the situation being weirder than usual is a given if safety improves for the average case. That aside, the answer to the first one is yes. Because of sonar and the cameras, a Tesla can see traffic two or three cars ahead and will initiate braking way earlier than a human would in the case of someone else running a red light - there a few videos of this exact situation available in YouTube. As for the second, probably not enough data, but in absolute numbers humans are responsible for nearly al of those cases so far, they happen weekly. By the way, the overturned truck was not a fatal accident - the car triggered emergency braking and the driver came out without a scratch. The fatal one was a couple years ago when a Model S ran under a white truck making an unsafe u-turn.
    - 6y ago

swarnie_ 6y ago

The issue is when there is a crash or a death could that situation have been avoided if the driver was looking ahead with two hands on the wheel, like you would in any other car without the marketing hype. I've seen more then enough crashes and deaths in Telsas that were perfectly avoidable providing the driver wasn't watching their ipad.

kwhitefoot 6y ago
Really? I've been driving for over forty years (about 15k km per year) and I have never seen a death involving any car let alone the relatively rare Tesla. I've seen emergency vehicles attending a crash perhaps once or twice a year but never seen the crash occur. In fact the only ones I have personal first hand experience of is the time I rear ended a car, the two times that I was rear ended, and the time I slid off the road on an icy corner. All three rear ending events were relatively low speed incidents (under 30 km/h) and would quite likely have been mitigated or even completely avoided if the cars in question had had automatic emergency braking. The icy corner was my own fault for not thinking ahead. So, to me, your statement, without some more context, sounds like an exaggeration.
- swarnie_ 6y ago
  I too have been driving some some time now but we have this thing called the internet, where you can see and share information. Lemme help you out friend - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+autopilot+crash https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+autopilot...
  - kwhitefoot 6y ago
    So you didn't mean: "I've seen more then enough crashes and deaths in Telsas" you meant: "I have heard about .." or "I have seen accounts of .." Those are not quite the same thing.

shafyy 6y ago

I'm not sure why you are going downvoted, this is true.

FireBeyond 6y ago

Tesla's miles have the advantage of being inherently autopilot capable, and turning off when things get dicey for it. Human drivers do not have those advantage. So Tesla is comparing drivers in situations where AP doesn't even try to drive the vehicle because it couldn't. This is amazingly misleading. And Tesla knows it.