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You are not using the same definition of "racism" that they are. "Prejudice + institutional power" is another framing where "racism against white people" is som

You are not using the same definition of "racism" that they are. "Prejudice + institutional power" is another framing where "racism against white people" is somewhat nonsensical. Why does that quote mean she's racist?

rayiner 6y ago
> Why does that quote mean she's racist? She’s taken negative characteristics, ascribed them to a group of people based on skin color, and implied that it’s a good thing to try and be “less white.” Its bigotry plain and simple and I’m actually taken aback that I have to explain it to you.
- onethought 6y ago
  Well seems their working from a premise of ‘prejudice + institutional power’... so in that sense, ‘white’ could be seen as shorthand for that in some countries. So being less prejudice and more aware of institutional power is a virtue/good thing.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    It’s still racist to use a group’s skin color as a “shorthand” for problems with a country’s institutions.
    - onethought 6y ago
      Sure... but it’s incredibly minor, verging on “preciousness”
  - alentist 6y ago
    > ‘white’ could be seen as shorthand for that Are you merely pretending to not see the problem?
    - onethought 6y ago
      I don’t think any one is harmed by that shorthand. More harmful to pretend colonialism wasn’t a thing, and that white isn’t an effective shorthand.
      - alentist 6y ago
        > I don’t think any one is harmed by that shorthand. Of course they are. Why play this game of pretend? And in what world is it "harmful" to "pretend" something true, namely that "white" is no shorthand (let alone an "effective" one) for "prejudice + institutional power"?
        onethought 6y ago
        I think you misread my reply... I’m saying don’t pretend. Is white history not steeped in colonialism? Did colonialism not lead to institutional power? Does that power still not exist?
        alentist 6y ago
        Why are you equating a human being with a "history" because of their skin color? And see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26364968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26364968.
        onethought 6y ago
        Am I? Answer my above questions. That history explains the present quite well. How did the current set of elites get their elite status? Sheer luck and determination? Your other reply... Needs some citations, cause it’s really quite false.
        alentist 6y ago
        > Am I? Yes, you are. > Your other reply... Needs some citations Done.
sjwalter 6y ago
First, the book is a hilarious Kafka trap. It's explicit basis is this: All whites are racist, and any white that denies this is demonstrating "fragility", and therefore is even MORE racist than whites that admit they're racist. See the trap? If you deny you're racist, it's proof that you're actually even more racist. The second part I want to point out, as someone who actually read this absolute rubbish, is that D'Angelo is absolutely hardcore racist. She, for example, spends an intro to a chapter explaining how she was invited to some event at a public park, and upon arrival, she saw two large groups of people, one black, the other white. For a brief moment, she describes, she was stricken with anxiety, worried that the group she was meeting might be the black group. She extrapolates her own internal racism to the default state of all white people. Seriously, read the book. She's out of her tree. Anybody recommending this book either hasn't read it and is virtue signalling, or has read it and is so deep into the magisterium of the Church of Woke that they're not worth trying to save.
kortilla 6y ago
> is another framing where It’s just another framing that gives you an exemption to discriminate based on skin color and pretend you’re doing it for good reasons.
elefanten 6y ago
You answered your own question. There’s been a stipulative, activist semantic expansion (or outright replacement) of the word “racism”. It really blew up fast but most prople haven’t consciously learned and internalized this, so a lot of (un)intentional equivocation takes place. Lots of miscommunication, misunderstanding and talking past each other. Classic human stuff. My opinion: putting aside the discussion of the new definitions merits and shortcomings, we can still easily call DiAngelo presumptuous, essentialist and nontrivially bigoted.
- rhino369 6y ago
  A tiny group of academics don't get to redefine commonly used words for rhetorical purposes (at least outside the circles of their field). Everyone knows what Rayiner meant when he said racist. That's what the word means.
alentist 6y ago
> "Prejudice + institutional power" is another framing where "racism against white people" is somewhat nonsensical. Nonsense. A white student is four times less likely to be admitted to a top university than a black student with the same grades and test scores. A white student is significantly less likely to be admitted to medical school than a comparable black student. There are literally hundreds of race-based scholarships exclusively for nonwhite students, and none exclusively for white students. That's to say nothing of the thousands of special programs, events, job fairs, awards, and career opportunities that exist exclusively for nonwhite students and workers.
- onethought 6y ago
  Citations? Pretty sure you made this stuff up.
  - alentist 6y ago
    https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Figure1-bigger.jpg https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Figure1-... https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.thecrimson.com/photos/2018/10/22/000701_1333312.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.thecrimson.com/photos/2018/10... https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarship-directory/race https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarsh... Note that the handful of scholarships listed under "Caucasian" do not appear to be actually exclusive. For example, for Journalism Institute for Media Diversity Scholarships: > Members of racial, ethnic and other underrepresented groups are particularly urged to apply as are those interested in studying the importance of diversity in the nation's media to this country's future well being. From No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life by Espenshade and Radford: https://imgur.com/a/UnLjMY7 https://imgur.com/a/UnLjMY7 > The black preference at public schools is equivalent on average to 3.8 ACT points. In other words, a black applicant who receives a score of 27 on the ACT test would have the same chance of admission to a public NSCE institution as a white candidate with an ACT score of 30.8, other things in model 2 the same... The second column of Table 3.5 indicates the size of admission preferences at private NSCE institutions. Once again, black applicants receive the largest admission bonus—equivalent to 310 SAT points. A black candidate with an SAT score of 1250 could be expected to have the same chance of being admitted as a white student whose SAT score is 1560, all other things equal in model 5.

rayiner 6y ago

> Why does that quote mean she's racist? She’s taken negative characteristics, ascribed them to a group of people based on skin color, and implied that it’s a good thing to try and be “less white.” Its bigotry plain and simple and I’m actually taken aback that I have to explain it to you.

onethought 6y ago
Well seems their working from a premise of ‘prejudice + institutional power’... so in that sense, ‘white’ could be seen as shorthand for that in some countries. So being less prejudice and more aware of institutional power is a virtue/good thing.
- rayiner 6y ago
  It’s still racist to use a group’s skin color as a “shorthand” for problems with a country’s institutions.
  - onethought 6y ago
    Sure... but it’s incredibly minor, verging on “preciousness”
- alentist 6y ago
  > ‘white’ could be seen as shorthand for that Are you merely pretending to not see the problem?
  - onethought 6y ago
    I don’t think any one is harmed by that shorthand. More harmful to pretend colonialism wasn’t a thing, and that white isn’t an effective shorthand.
    - alentist 6y ago
      > I don’t think any one is harmed by that shorthand. Of course they are. Why play this game of pretend? And in what world is it "harmful" to "pretend" something true, namely that "white" is no shorthand (let alone an "effective" one) for "prejudice + institutional power"?
      - onethought 6y ago
        I think you misread my reply... I’m saying don’t pretend. Is white history not steeped in colonialism? Did colonialism not lead to institutional power? Does that power still not exist?
        alentist 6y ago
        Why are you equating a human being with a "history" because of their skin color? And see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26364968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26364968.
        onethought 6y ago
        Am I? Answer my above questions. That history explains the present quite well. How did the current set of elites get their elite status? Sheer luck and determination? Your other reply... Needs some citations, cause it’s really quite false.
        alentist 6y ago
        > Am I? Yes, you are. > Your other reply... Needs some citations Done.

sjwalter 6y ago

First, the book is a hilarious Kafka trap. It's explicit basis is this: All whites are racist, and any white that denies this is demonstrating "fragility", and therefore is even MORE racist than whites that admit they're racist. See the trap? If you deny you're racist, it's proof that you're actually even more racist. The second part I want to point out, as someone who actually read this absolute rubbish, is that D'Angelo is absolutely hardcore racist. She, for example, spends an intro to a chapter explaining how she was invited to some event at a public park, and upon arrival, she saw two large groups of people, one black, the other white. For a brief moment, she describes, she was stricken with anxiety, worried that the group she was meeting might be the black group. She extrapolates her own internal racism to the default state of all white people. Seriously, read the book. She's out of her tree. Anybody recommending this book either hasn't read it and is virtue signalling, or has read it and is so deep into the magisterium of the Church of Woke that they're not worth trying to save.

kortilla 6y ago

> is another framing where It’s just another framing that gives you an exemption to discriminate based on skin color and pretend you’re doing it for good reasons.

elefanten 6y ago

You answered your own question. There’s been a stipulative, activist semantic expansion (or outright replacement) of the word “racism”. It really blew up fast but most prople haven’t consciously learned and internalized this, so a lot of (un)intentional equivocation takes place. Lots of miscommunication, misunderstanding and talking past each other. Classic human stuff. My opinion: putting aside the discussion of the new definitions merits and shortcomings, we can still easily call DiAngelo presumptuous, essentialist and nontrivially bigoted.

rhino369 6y ago
A tiny group of academics don't get to redefine commonly used words for rhetorical purposes (at least outside the circles of their field). Everyone knows what Rayiner meant when he said racist. That's what the word means.

alentist 6y ago

> "Prejudice + institutional power" is another framing where "racism against white people" is somewhat nonsensical. Nonsense. A white student is four times less likely to be admitted to a top university than a black student with the same grades and test scores. A white student is significantly less likely to be admitted to medical school than a comparable black student. There are literally hundreds of race-based scholarships exclusively for nonwhite students, and none exclusively for white students. That's to say nothing of the thousands of special programs, events, job fairs, awards, and career opportunities that exist exclusively for nonwhite students and workers.

onethought 6y ago
Citations? Pretty sure you made this stuff up.
- alentist 6y ago
  https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Figure1-bigger.jpg https://www.statnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Figure1-... https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med1.jpg https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med-1.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.thecrimson.com/photos/2018/10/22/000701_1333312.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.thecrimson.com/photos/2018/10... https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarship-directory/race https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarsh... Note that the handful of scholarships listed under "Caucasian" do not appear to be actually exclusive. For example, for Journalism Institute for Media Diversity Scholarships: > Members of racial, ethnic and other underrepresented groups are particularly urged to apply as are those interested in studying the importance of diversity in the nation's media to this country's future well being. From No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life by Espenshade and Radford: https://imgur.com/a/UnLjMY7 https://imgur.com/a/UnLjMY7 > The black preference at public schools is equivalent on average to 3.8 ACT points. In other words, a black applicant who receives a score of 27 on the ACT test would have the same chance of admission to a public NSCE institution as a white candidate with an ACT score of 30.8, other things in model 2 the same... The second column of Table 3.5 indicates the size of admission preferences at private NSCE institutions. Once again, black applicants receive the largest admission bonus—equivalent to 310 SAT points. A black candidate with an SAT score of 1250 could be expected to have the same chance of being admitted as a white student whose SAT score is 1560, all other things equal in model 5.