4 ms·

I just read the book in the link, here is what I found: "even Jane could think of that" ^ sexism "Chinese man who eats with sticks" ^ racism

SilverRed 6y ago
The sexism is not super clear in context imo. There are 5 generic names listed in that paragraph and none of them are referenced previously so it looks like just random names to support the "Anyone could think of that"
- berkut 6y ago
  Yeah, I think it's open to interpretation: my reading of "Nat" is it could be short for Natalie, so by that logic, "Jane" wouldn't necessarily be stupid just because she's a woman (which I assume is what the potential complaint would be?)
cperciva 6y ago
How exactly are chopsticks racist?
- mc32 6y ago
  I know there are a few Asian Restaurants owned and run and given patronage by Asians (and Asian Americans) with the name Sticks or Stix. China Stix, Chopstix, etc. Someone mentioned the depiction of the eyes was problematic, but other characters also have similar eyes and moreover, Japanese woodcuts as well as other East Asian art use similar eye representation[1]. It's a bit looney. Who knows, maybe it's a ploy to boost flagging sales by piquing the interest of 'conscientious' parents who otherwise might have considered Dr Seuss passé. [1]https://spokenvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Utamaro-Two-Beauties-with-Bamboo-770x1234.jpg https://spokenvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Utamaro-...
- linspace 6y ago
  My exact thought. I would say that discriminating against asians in university access is racist, for example. But chopsticks? I must be becoming old. The problem with these absurd witchhunts is that they dilute racism. At some point people give up and think "well, it must be that I'm racist" and when that happens they stop caring.
  - jjj123 6y ago
    Is that when they stop caring? In my experience discovering your own racist behaviors is when you can actually make a positive difference by changing said behaviors. Much better than drawing a line between racist and not racist people and assuming you’re on the right side without actually interrogating it. All of that is a bit of a tangent though because I have no opinion on the Seuss issue specifically. Didn’t seem that offensive to me but I’m not the right person to judge.
    - linspace 6y ago
      Well, of course a lot of people stop caring way before. I'm not saying introspection is not necessary because we are all wired to automatically create groups by excluding other people from them be it race, religion, gender or whatever other reason. It's good to rationally think about your own biases. My point is precisely that other people is continuously drawing lines and everything is binary.
- eesmith 6y ago
  The depiction is of a man with slanted slit eyes running with chopsticks in a bowl of rice, wearing a pointed hat and what appears to be Japanese geta. (The original image also had him with a queue and with yellow skin, and referred to him as "Chinaman" instead of "Chinese man".) This was part of the negative racist depictions common in that era. You can see other places where Seuss used slanted slit eyes, like his WWII cartoons depicting Japanese-Americans as 5th columnists - https://apjjf.org/2017/16/Minear.html https://apjjf.org/2017/16/Minear.html .
- mcphage 6y ago
  It's not the chopsticks. It's that, there's a parade. And who's in that parade? Well, there's a magician, performing magic tricks. That's neat, it makes sense for him to be a parade. And then there's a guy, and he's Chinese. That's it. He's not performing wonders, for people to stand and marvel, he's just a dude. In the book, the idea of "being Chinese" is enough of an oddity for people to stand and stare.
  - cherrycherry98 6y ago
    If he's wearing traditional clothing, as depicted, he certainly would stand out. Modern Chinese New Year parades (and other ethnic parades) feature people in traditional attire, they'd be awfully boring otherwise. Whether one stands out or not is relative to what's accepted as normal at a time and place. A person wearing a cowboy hat and boots in the northeast will have people stand and stare at them.
    - mcphage 6y ago
      > Modern Chinese New Year parades (and other ethnic parades) In case you’re unfamiliar with the book, this is not a New Year parade.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
    I thought your summary was good and yet it points to something that troubles me. I can understand how a society can change so that things that were formerly rare and remarkable become common and unremarkable. I can also understand not wanting to make people feel "other". Yet there will indeed always be things that differ interestingly from the usual practices of the day. It seems strange (heh) for everyone to suppress the (very universal, you will learn if you travel) human impulse to find difference interesting, exotic, and delightful. Eventually you will find yourself on both sides of this dynamic. I don't necessarily have a problem with making updated versions of Dr. Seuss books that try to avoid accidentally alienating parts of a now-broader audience. But the larger principle, of refusing to see "foreignness" as "weird", I'm not sure how to deal with. It seems the safest approach is to always suppress surprise. You cannot exoticize if you refuse to acknowledge anything as exotic. But I don't think surprise ("gaijin-das!") is always malicious, and something feels wrong, "anti-human" even, about always burying that reaction. It also invites a certain kind of social attack, which is like a higher-stakes "you laugh, you lose". It's as though certain parts of ourselves have been let out of the closet, but other, mostly harmless parts, have been shoved in. I would like a way to be respectful but also human. I do not think norms are moving in that direction.
hermeter352 6y ago
Um excuse me, did you just assume Jane's gender? That's really problematic you know.

SilverRed 6y ago

The sexism is not super clear in context imo. There are 5 generic names listed in that paragraph and none of them are referenced previously so it looks like just random names to support the "Anyone could think of that"

berkut 6y ago
Yeah, I think it's open to interpretation: my reading of "Nat" is it could be short for Natalie, so by that logic, "Jane" wouldn't necessarily be stupid just because she's a woman (which I assume is what the potential complaint would be?)

cperciva 6y ago

How exactly are chopsticks racist?

mc32 6y ago
I know there are a few Asian Restaurants owned and run and given patronage by Asians (and Asian Americans) with the name Sticks or Stix. China Stix, Chopstix, etc. Someone mentioned the depiction of the eyes was problematic, but other characters also have similar eyes and moreover, Japanese woodcuts as well as other East Asian art use similar eye representation[1]. It's a bit looney. Who knows, maybe it's a ploy to boost flagging sales by piquing the interest of 'conscientious' parents who otherwise might have considered Dr Seuss passé. [1]https://spokenvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Utamaro-Two-Beauties-with-Bamboo-770x1234.jpg https://spokenvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Utamaro-...
linspace 6y ago
My exact thought. I would say that discriminating against asians in university access is racist, for example. But chopsticks? I must be becoming old. The problem with these absurd witchhunts is that they dilute racism. At some point people give up and think "well, it must be that I'm racist" and when that happens they stop caring.
- jjj123 6y ago
  Is that when they stop caring? In my experience discovering your own racist behaviors is when you can actually make a positive difference by changing said behaviors. Much better than drawing a line between racist and not racist people and assuming you’re on the right side without actually interrogating it. All of that is a bit of a tangent though because I have no opinion on the Seuss issue specifically. Didn’t seem that offensive to me but I’m not the right person to judge.
  - linspace 6y ago
    Well, of course a lot of people stop caring way before. I'm not saying introspection is not necessary because we are all wired to automatically create groups by excluding other people from them be it race, religion, gender or whatever other reason. It's good to rationally think about your own biases. My point is precisely that other people is continuously drawing lines and everything is binary.
eesmith 6y ago
The depiction is of a man with slanted slit eyes running with chopsticks in a bowl of rice, wearing a pointed hat and what appears to be Japanese geta. (The original image also had him with a queue and with yellow skin, and referred to him as "Chinaman" instead of "Chinese man".) This was part of the negative racist depictions common in that era. You can see other places where Seuss used slanted slit eyes, like his WWII cartoons depicting Japanese-Americans as 5th columnists - https://apjjf.org/2017/16/Minear.html https://apjjf.org/2017/16/Minear.html .
mcphage 6y ago
It's not the chopsticks. It's that, there's a parade. And who's in that parade? Well, there's a magician, performing magic tricks. That's neat, it makes sense for him to be a parade. And then there's a guy, and he's Chinese. That's it. He's not performing wonders, for people to stand and marvel, he's just a dude. In the book, the idea of "being Chinese" is enough of an oddity for people to stand and stare.
- cherrycherry98 6y ago
  If he's wearing traditional clothing, as depicted, he certainly would stand out. Modern Chinese New Year parades (and other ethnic parades) feature people in traditional attire, they'd be awfully boring otherwise. Whether one stands out or not is relative to what's accepted as normal at a time and place. A person wearing a cowboy hat and boots in the northeast will have people stand and stare at them.
  - mcphage 6y ago
    > Modern Chinese New Year parades (and other ethnic parades) In case you’re unfamiliar with the book, this is not a New Year parade.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
  I thought your summary was good and yet it points to something that troubles me. I can understand how a society can change so that things that were formerly rare and remarkable become common and unremarkable. I can also understand not wanting to make people feel "other". Yet there will indeed always be things that differ interestingly from the usual practices of the day. It seems strange (heh) for everyone to suppress the (very universal, you will learn if you travel) human impulse to find difference interesting, exotic, and delightful. Eventually you will find yourself on both sides of this dynamic. I don't necessarily have a problem with making updated versions of Dr. Seuss books that try to avoid accidentally alienating parts of a now-broader audience. But the larger principle, of refusing to see "foreignness" as "weird", I'm not sure how to deal with. It seems the safest approach is to always suppress surprise. You cannot exoticize if you refuse to acknowledge anything as exotic. But I don't think surprise ("gaijin-das!") is always malicious, and something feels wrong, "anti-human" even, about always burying that reaction. It also invites a certain kind of social attack, which is like a higher-stakes "you laugh, you lose". It's as though certain parts of ourselves have been let out of the closet, but other, mostly harmless parts, have been shoved in. I would like a way to be respectful but also human. I do not think norms are moving in that direction.

hermeter352 6y ago

Um excuse me, did you just assume Jane's gender? That's really problematic you know.