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I don't really get the correlation between household income and programming experience in high school. Their parents can't afford a laptop? They can't afford a

I don't really get the correlation between household income and programming experience in high school. Their parents can't afford a laptop? They can't afford an Internet connection? The kids don't have a good place to learn in their house? They don't have time? Is programming affected more than other subjects like math, English/grammar, science, etc?

tedivm 6y ago
This may be less so now than it was 10 years ago, but I absolutely promise you that having a decent computer (not great, not a gaming pc, but just something that a kid can feel comfortable experimenting with) that is readily available (and not being shared with siblings) is absolutely a luxury.
_underfl0w_ 6y ago
> Their parents can't afford a laptop? They can't afford an Internet connection? The kids don't have a good place to learn in their house? They don't have time? All of the above, and it's surprising this isn't obvious. It may be hard to notice or internalize if you've never seen it and only know privilege, but possession of all or even some of those things is not a guarantee for everyone. Believe it or not, there are some who don't come home to a computer, caring (or even existent!) parents, stable meals, or free time.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- young_unixer 6y ago
  It isn't obvious to me because I've never lived in the US. I was genuinely asking, not trying to shame people who can't afford a computer. Maybe I didn't use the right words to formulate my question.
  - lcuff 6y ago
    Thanks for clarifying the context of your question. Very helpful, and changes the tone completely. 1/2 of the people in the U.S. "don't pay taxes", that is, don't make enough money to owe taxes. So that's one issue. I mentor a hispanic kid who's mother's English was so weak and her knowledge of 'the system' so weak, that she couldn't take advantage of programs to provide used computers to her kids, or low-cost Internet access to her household. And the $10/month for low-cost Internet access WAS out of reach. 10 people in a two bedroom apartment was also their norm.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
joshuacc 6y ago
> Their parents can't afford a laptop? Yes! There are millions of kids in the US whose parents can't afford a cheap $300 laptop. The federal government pays for school lunches because there are so many kids who otherwise wouldn't even be getting decent food otherwise. > They can't afford an Internet connection? See above. Also, there are many places in the US where getting broadband service is very difficult. Including places just an hour outside of Washington, DC. My parents were only able to get conventional broadband service a few years ago. Prior to that they paid exorbitant fees for satellite internet service with a 500mb per month cap. > The kids don't have a good place to learn in their house? Imagine being a kid with 3 siblings and your parent(s) living in a studio apartment. Or a kid that doesn't have a stable "home" at all. > They don't have time? That can be an issue too, depending on age. A teenager may be working outside of school hours to help take care of the family's financial needs.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"Is programming affected more than other subjects like math, English/grammar, science, etc?" Probably a bit more, as it is common to learn other subjects by a book, but learning programming without a computer ... sounds hard.
- TheCycoONE 6y ago
  Dijkstra probably would disagree, but his isn't a common opinion.
Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
> I don't really get the correlation between household income and programming experience in high school. > Their parents can't afford a laptop? Holy crap, the amount of privilege shown off in just two sentences is absolutely astounding. This may come as a shock to you, but a very significant number of people don't have a couple hundred dollars to buy a low-end used laptop. 40% of Americans would struggle to come up with $400 for an emergency expense [0], let alone save $400 for a laptop. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-cant-handle-a-400-unexpected-expense.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-...
- astrange 6y ago
  > 40% of Americans would struggle to come up with $400 for an emergency expense [0], let alone save $400 for a laptop. It actually doesn't say that, it says they don't have $400 in cash equivalents but may be able to produce it by selling "assets". So a person who keeps all their savings in CDs or investments also counts, although only for expenses you can't put on credit cards.
  - illirik 6y ago
    The working poor simply don't have the safety net of good credit or wealthy families that the vast majority of HN commenters do. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and get a $400 surprise expense, you don't have $400 just sitting in some money market account, or two shares of SPY they can just sell, because the poverty wages being paid to millions of working people leave zero margin to build any sort of financial security, leading to a kind of precariousness that is unimaginable to the educated professional with a comfortable upbringing. "Assets" means things like a wedding ring, some power tools, a computer, or maybe even a 1995 Dodge Neon; if you go to a pawn shop, you can see the sorts of things people pawn (or sell) when they desperately need $400 for an emergency expense. They often take payday loans, mortgaging their next minimum-wage paycheck; since the next paycheck minus payment no longer covers their regular living expenses, they take another predatory loan or pawn another heirloom. 80% of people who take a payday loan have to renew it because they can't repay it. I have a deep personal dislike for Dave Ramsey, but he does a good job of explaining how even minor emergency expenses can lead to a cycle of debt and further despair. (https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/get-out-payday-loan-trap https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/get-out-payday-loan-trap) There is so much more instability and precarity in this country than most PMC people can imagine.
icedchai 6y ago
The cost of computers has come down a ton, but it was a much bigger deal in the 90's and earlier. A lot of people didn't have computers at home. A decent x86 system (like a 486 with VGA etc) was at least $2500 or so. That's without any programming tools... compilers weren't free. When I meet fellow developers who didn't have computers growing up, I realize how privileged and lucky I was.
onei 6y ago
In the UK, every student does Math, English and Science to a basic level. Maths and English in particular were held up as non-negotiable if you ever wanted a job, I suspect so you had a reasonable level of literacy and numeracy to be able to count money, read letters, etc. Conversely, programming was not available in my fairly middle-class school. In terms of money, we only have to look to the laptops schools are providing to students (or not depending on government funding) to see how many children don't have access to a laptop. A good place to learn can also be hard to find for large families in small houses which is sadly all too common for low income households.
nwallin 6y ago
74% of American families own a computer. The other 26% do not. Incomes are also highly clustered- chances are any given cohort of high school students either has 90% or more or 10% or less kids with computers, without a lot in between. Relatively poor districts may have a very general computer literacy class (typing, word processing, spreadsheets) but won't have a programming class, because the logistics of getting them adequate time at a computer to complete the work is impossible. https://www.statista.com/statistics/756054/united-states-adults-desktop-laptop-ownership/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/756054/united-states-adu...

tedivm 6y ago

This may be less so now than it was 10 years ago, but I absolutely promise you that having a decent computer (not great, not a gaming pc, but just something that a kid can feel comfortable experimenting with) that is readily available (and not being shared with siblings) is absolutely a luxury.

_underfl0w_ 6y ago

> Their parents can't afford a laptop? They can't afford an Internet connection? The kids don't have a good place to learn in their house? They don't have time? All of the above, and it's surprising this isn't obvious. It may be hard to notice or internalize if you've never seen it and only know privilege, but possession of all or even some of those things is not a guarantee for everyone. Believe it or not, there are some who don't come home to a computer, caring (or even existent!) parents, stable meals, or free time.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
young_unixer 6y ago
It isn't obvious to me because I've never lived in the US. I was genuinely asking, not trying to shame people who can't afford a computer. Maybe I didn't use the right words to formulate my question.
- lcuff 6y ago
  Thanks for clarifying the context of your question. Very helpful, and changes the tone completely. 1/2 of the people in the U.S. "don't pay taxes", that is, don't make enough money to owe taxes. So that's one issue. I mentor a hispanic kid who's mother's English was so weak and her knowledge of 'the system' so weak, that she couldn't take advantage of programs to provide used computers to her kids, or low-cost Internet access to her household. And the $10/month for low-cost Internet access WAS out of reach. 10 people in a two bedroom apartment was also their norm.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

joshuacc 6y ago

> Their parents can't afford a laptop? Yes! There are millions of kids in the US whose parents can't afford a cheap $300 laptop. The federal government pays for school lunches because there are so many kids who otherwise wouldn't even be getting decent food otherwise. > They can't afford an Internet connection? See above. Also, there are many places in the US where getting broadband service is very difficult. Including places just an hour outside of Washington, DC. My parents were only able to get conventional broadband service a few years ago. Prior to that they paid exorbitant fees for satellite internet service with a 500mb per month cap. > The kids don't have a good place to learn in their house? Imagine being a kid with 3 siblings and your parent(s) living in a studio apartment. Or a kid that doesn't have a stable "home" at all. > They don't have time? That can be an issue too, depending on age. A teenager may be working outside of school hours to help take care of the family's financial needs.

hutzlibu 6y ago

"Is programming affected more than other subjects like math, English/grammar, science, etc?" Probably a bit more, as it is common to learn other subjects by a book, but learning programming without a computer ... sounds hard.

TheCycoONE 6y ago
Dijkstra probably would disagree, but his isn't a common opinion.

Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

> I don't really get the correlation between household income and programming experience in high school. > Their parents can't afford a laptop? Holy crap, the amount of privilege shown off in just two sentences is absolutely astounding. This may come as a shock to you, but a very significant number of people don't have a couple hundred dollars to buy a low-end used laptop. 40% of Americans would struggle to come up with $400 for an emergency expense [0], let alone save $400 for a laptop. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-cant-handle-a-400-unexpected-expense.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/20/heres-why-so-many-americans-...

astrange 6y ago
> 40% of Americans would struggle to come up with $400 for an emergency expense [0], let alone save $400 for a laptop. It actually doesn't say that, it says they don't have $400 in cash equivalents but may be able to produce it by selling "assets". So a person who keeps all their savings in CDs or investments also counts, although only for expenses you can't put on credit cards.
- illirik 6y ago
  The working poor simply don't have the safety net of good credit or wealthy families that the vast majority of HN commenters do. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and get a $400 surprise expense, you don't have $400 just sitting in some money market account, or two shares of SPY they can just sell, because the poverty wages being paid to millions of working people leave zero margin to build any sort of financial security, leading to a kind of precariousness that is unimaginable to the educated professional with a comfortable upbringing. "Assets" means things like a wedding ring, some power tools, a computer, or maybe even a 1995 Dodge Neon; if you go to a pawn shop, you can see the sorts of things people pawn (or sell) when they desperately need $400 for an emergency expense. They often take payday loans, mortgaging their next minimum-wage paycheck; since the next paycheck minus payment no longer covers their regular living expenses, they take another predatory loan or pawn another heirloom. 80% of people who take a payday loan have to renew it because they can't repay it. I have a deep personal dislike for Dave Ramsey, but he does a good job of explaining how even minor emergency expenses can lead to a cycle of debt and further despair. (https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/get-out-payday-loan-trap https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/get-out-payday-loan-trap) There is so much more instability and precarity in this country than most PMC people can imagine.

icedchai 6y ago

The cost of computers has come down a ton, but it was a much bigger deal in the 90's and earlier. A lot of people didn't have computers at home. A decent x86 system (like a 486 with VGA etc) was at least $2500 or so. That's without any programming tools... compilers weren't free. When I meet fellow developers who didn't have computers growing up, I realize how privileged and lucky I was.

onei 6y ago

In the UK, every student does Math, English and Science to a basic level. Maths and English in particular were held up as non-negotiable if you ever wanted a job, I suspect so you had a reasonable level of literacy and numeracy to be able to count money, read letters, etc. Conversely, programming was not available in my fairly middle-class school. In terms of money, we only have to look to the laptops schools are providing to students (or not depending on government funding) to see how many children don't have access to a laptop. A good place to learn can also be hard to find for large families in small houses which is sadly all too common for low income households.

nwallin 6y ago

74% of American families own a computer. The other 26% do not. Incomes are also highly clustered- chances are any given cohort of high school students either has 90% or more or 10% or less kids with computers, without a lot in between. Relatively poor districts may have a very general computer literacy class (typing, word processing, spreadsheets) but won't have a programming class, because the logistics of getting them adequate time at a computer to complete the work is impossible. https://www.statista.com/statistics/756054/united-states-adults-desktop-laptop-ownership/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/756054/united-states-adu...