7 ms·

It's weird that these books got pulled from circulation in the first place; the offensiveness is relatively mild (especially for the time), and quite a few of t

It's weird that these books got pulled from circulation in the first place; the offensiveness is relatively mild (especially for the time), and quite a few of these have historical and literary significance (including the very first children's book published under the "Dr. Seuss" pen name). eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-printed copies is just icing on the weirdness cake. This is the same website where searching for "minstrel" or "mammy" turns up a veritable smörgåsbord of racist caricatures, and yet some Dr. Seuss books cross the line for them?

jfengel 6y ago
I agree with you that it's a little weird that eBay has decided to draw the line there, but you might give a second thought to what constitutes "relatively mild offensiveness". These racist caricatures have a long and ugly history, and they persist. They may seem mild to you, but to people who have to deal with racist caricatures every day of their lives, it's unpleasant. Not just having to explain to your children why they've been presented like that in this book targeted to them, but why all of the other children they know will have been exposed to the same images. I don't think you intended to diminish that in your post, but I think it's worth taking note when you tell other people that they shouldn't be offended by something when you don't experience it. Take a look at the images, and you can see why the publishers felt that they were better off without them. As for why eBay decided to glom onto that... that I can't say.
- dTal 6y ago
  https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg Maybe I'm old fashioned but all I see is a smiling boy, in traditional Chinese dress, eating what appears to be rice out of a bowl with chopsticks. Are there actually Chinese people who find this offensive? Why?
  - hntrader 6y ago
    As someone with an Asian background, it's not offensive at all, and I can't think of an Asian person who would find it offensive. This is just cancel culture playing out. Weak, risk-averse executives cowardly bending the knee to a small group of malicious, narcissistic activists. This reminds me of the "What is the problem with Apu?" fiasco. No Indian I knew cared, but a small number of sociopathic activists forced the hands of the cowards in charge.
    - refurb 6y ago
      It’s clear as an Asian person you need the insights of white people to determine what you should/shouldn’t be offended about in the depiction of your own race.
    - VRay 6y ago
      As someone with an Asian background, you should go read some of Seuss' newspaper comics where he argues for Japanese internment, and then look at that picture again in that context
      - hntrader 6y ago
        That seems like confirmation bias. The book was published before WW2, and the white people in that picture look just as ridiculous and caricatured as the Asian, with dots for eyes and absurd costumes and postures.
    - kart23 6y ago
      I care. Nearly every kid in middle school watched simpsons except me (my parents said it was bad, I had no idea why at the time), and every day I would have to deal with the same Apu jokes and stale imitated accents. At the time, I didn't even know what it was a reference to, and I just took it as kids being kids. But when I grew up, I realized that all that bullshit was pretty much just because of this one character. And I don't want any Indian-American kid to ever have to deal with that stuff again. Its about education and making sure there are real depictions of Indians on screen (not played by other races), not just outright banning media. > forced the hands of the cowards in charge So you support a white actor voicing an Indian character, and don't want some Indian-Americans added to the show? Change is good when something is messed up. Our problem wasn't with the show itself, its how the show influences the behavior of society negatively, and the fact that there was simply no other representation of Indian-Americans in media at the time.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    None of the white people are presented in exaggerated, outdated costumes. It exaggerates the slanted eyes, the queue, and (in some editions) the bright yellow color. Compare it to some of the deliberately-racist cartoons that Giesel drew during World War II: https://reimaginingmigration.org/dr-seuss-political-cartoons/ https://reimaginingmigration.org/dr-seuss-political-cartoons... This wasn't intended to offend, and I don't know how many people were offended by it. But if I were the publisher the similarities would distress me.
    - rufus_foreman 6y ago
      >> None of the white people are presented in exaggerated, outdated costumes There was a white person presented in an exaggerated, outdated costume in that very same drawing.
      - tyingq 6y ago
        The whole image: https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/nationalpost/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/9729098_orig.png https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/nationalpost/wp-cont...
    - refenestrator 6y ago
      But it's all white people getting offended at it, and specifically it's white people who never give a shit about Chinese in any of their other culture wars. Discriminated against in college admissions? Erased in discussions of diversity in tech? Who cares. Call me back when we can use you to get mad at a children's book.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      > None of the white people are presented in exaggerated, outdated costumes. Outdated? These cartoons were drawn in the 1930's and 40's... 90+ years ago. They were not outdated at the time. Regardless if we find some of these drawings racist by today's standards - they are historical and should be preserved as such. 1984 becomes more real by the day...
      - 6y ago
  - offby37years 6y ago
    No. The Chinese have a term for these privileged westerners who exhibit faux-outrage: 圣母婊, 聖母婊 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo
    - cambalache 6y ago
      Why did you copy-paste a related term(Shengmu-Biao ) in both traditional and simplified hanzi?
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    I'm of Chinese descent. I'm much, more more offended by progressives clamoring to take away educational and job opportunities away from Asians because we're "overrepresented minorities" (as if we hadn't earned our place through hard work and education) and then making a mountain out of a molehill like this to pretend that they are actually concerned about Asians as minorities. Compared to two-facedness of that degree, Dr. Seuss's little cartoon doesn't register at all.
- WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
  This HN topic in two acts. [ACT1] Comment here: "What bothers me is the speed with which this process ... happens. We are not discussing things anymore." [ACT2] jfengel discusses racism. Gets repeatedly downvoted.
  - throwaway3699 6y ago
    Because most people disagree this is racist, but the opinion of the plebs is ignored and the deplatformings happen anyway without having a conversation first. Of course this was going to happen.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  Take a look at the images, and you can see why the publishers felt that they were better off without them. As for why eBay decided to glom onto that... that I can't say. This is the part that bothers me. Publishers can do whatever they want, and it's nice that they're at least willing to try to be progressive, even if this particular case of outrage is maybe a bit exaggerated. Ebay jumping on the bandwagon seems like it's just for brownie points with whatever faux-woke nerd happens to scroll past the announcement.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-printed copies eBay isn't deciding that, it is deciding unilaterally that it will not participate in the buying or selling of those items. eBay probably has no interest and in any case has no power to make decisions about what can be bought and sold, only about what it will participate as a facilitator of buying and selling.
- dTal 6y ago
  Good point! Well I guess I'll just go and buy my copy at the other well known online auction site... what was it called again? /s eBay has a natural monopoly due to the nature of auctions. If they decide not to list something, it becomes at the very least much harder to trade.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Well I guess I’ll just go and buy my copy at the other well known online auction site… Online auctions aren’t the only places to buy and sell goods. They aren’t even the only places to buy and sell goods online. Plenty of places still selling them (though, because of the announcement that they won’t be published, prices are insane right now, as they’ve become instant high-interest speculative collectibles.)
    - underseacables 6y ago
      I just bought a bunch of Dr. Seuss books because honestly I’ve never seen them before, never read them as a child, but now I’m deeply curious to find out what is in them
    - gsich 6y ago
      This is splitting hairs. ebay deciding that they don't allow buying/selling is obviously restricted to ... well ebay.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    eBay clearly has competitors; you could buy or sell a copy on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800818/ https://smile.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800...
gnopgnip 6y ago
Ebay didn't decide it unilaterally, it is in conjunction with the Dr. Seuss estate and Dr. Seuss Enterprises LP
- hedora 6y ago
  Really? Suppressing secondary markets probably falls afoul of copyright law.
- krrrh 6y ago
  I really miss the anti-copyright radicalism that used to suffuse hacker culture in the early naughts. The Seuss estate should have the same power to limit publication of these books as Shakespeare’s heirs would have to stop publication of the Merchant of Venice. And if that sounds like it’s going to far can they at least have no say in the right to resale?
quadrifoliate 6y ago
> eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-printed copies eBay is not "unilaterally" deciding anything. I can't remember the last time I bought or sold anything on eBay for instance. As I see it, they probably want to avoid the resulting controversy from any of these items, and don't want anything to do with them on their platform. As an immigrant to the US, this is what I don't get. Isn't the whole idea of capitalism supposed to be that eBay's delisting is an opportunity for ten other websites specializing in obscure Dr. Seuss books to pop up and eat their business? [1] Or would you rather have one centralized government agency in charge of deciding which books can and can't be sold? -------------------------------------------------- [1] What I personally suspect (without much evidence) is that there is very little of a secondary market for these books. Sure, some are going for $500 because people will collect anything, but the person simply doesn't care about them one way or the other.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  > Isn't the whole idea of capitalism supposed to be that eBay's delisting is an opportunity for ten other websites specializing in obscure Dr. Seuss books to pop up and eat their business? It is. And don't get me wrong: eBay's well within their rights to restrict what people can buy and sell on their platform. It's just weird that this is where they draw the line; the message here seems to be "we're totally fine with selling things depicting racist caricatures, except for these old children's books". That is: eBay having the right to do something does not make them above criticism or scrutiny.
  - quadrifoliate 6y ago
    > That is: eBay having the right to do something does not make them above criticism or scrutiny. Yes, the inconsistent policy applications you mention does mean that eBay is a terrible site if you want to find well-vetted products. Honestly, I have never gotten a particularly "trustworthy" vibe from eBay, so this doesn't come as a huge surprise to me.

jfengel 6y ago

I agree with you that it's a little weird that eBay has decided to draw the line there, but you might give a second thought to what constitutes "relatively mild offensiveness". These racist caricatures have a long and ugly history, and they persist. They may seem mild to you, but to people who have to deal with racist caricatures every day of their lives, it's unpleasant. Not just having to explain to your children why they've been presented like that in this book targeted to them, but why all of the other children they know will have been exposed to the same images. I don't think you intended to diminish that in your post, but I think it's worth taking note when you tell other people that they shouldn't be offended by something when you don't experience it. Take a look at the images, and you can see why the publishers felt that they were better off without them. As for why eBay decided to glom onto that... that I can't say.

dTal 6y ago
https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg Maybe I'm old fashioned but all I see is a smiling boy, in traditional Chinese dress, eating what appears to be rice out of a bowl with chopsticks. Are there actually Chinese people who find this offensive? Why?
- hntrader 6y ago
  As someone with an Asian background, it's not offensive at all, and I can't think of an Asian person who would find it offensive. This is just cancel culture playing out. Weak, risk-averse executives cowardly bending the knee to a small group of malicious, narcissistic activists. This reminds me of the "What is the problem with Apu?" fiasco. No Indian I knew cared, but a small number of sociopathic activists forced the hands of the cowards in charge.
  - refurb 6y ago
    It’s clear as an Asian person you need the insights of white people to determine what you should/shouldn’t be offended about in the depiction of your own race.
  - VRay 6y ago
    As someone with an Asian background, you should go read some of Seuss' newspaper comics where he argues for Japanese internment, and then look at that picture again in that context
    - hntrader 6y ago
      That seems like confirmation bias. The book was published before WW2, and the white people in that picture look just as ridiculous and caricatured as the Asian, with dots for eyes and absurd costumes and postures.
  - kart23 6y ago
    I care. Nearly every kid in middle school watched simpsons except me (my parents said it was bad, I had no idea why at the time), and every day I would have to deal with the same Apu jokes and stale imitated accents. At the time, I didn't even know what it was a reference to, and I just took it as kids being kids. But when I grew up, I realized that all that bullshit was pretty much just because of this one character. And I don't want any Indian-American kid to ever have to deal with that stuff again. Its about education and making sure there are real depictions of Indians on screen (not played by other races), not just outright banning media. > forced the hands of the cowards in charge So you support a white actor voicing an Indian character, and don't want some Indian-Americans added to the show? Change is good when something is messed up. Our problem wasn't with the show itself, its how the show influences the behavior of society negatively, and the fact that there was simply no other representation of Indian-Americans in media at the time.
- jfengel 6y ago
  None of the white people are presented in exaggerated, outdated costumes. It exaggerates the slanted eyes, the queue, and (in some editions) the bright yellow color. Compare it to some of the deliberately-racist cartoons that Giesel drew during World War II: https://reimaginingmigration.org/dr-seuss-political-cartoons/ https://reimaginingmigration.org/dr-seuss-political-cartoons... This wasn't intended to offend, and I don't know how many people were offended by it. But if I were the publisher the similarities would distress me.
  - rufus_foreman 6y ago
    >> None of the white people are presented in exaggerated, outdated costumes There was a white person presented in an exaggerated, outdated costume in that very same drawing.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      The whole image: https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/nationalpost/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/9729098_orig.png https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/nationalpost/wp-cont...
  - refenestrator 6y ago
    But it's all white people getting offended at it, and specifically it's white people who never give a shit about Chinese in any of their other culture wars. Discriminated against in college admissions? Erased in discussions of diversity in tech? Who cares. Call me back when we can use you to get mad at a children's book.
  - Alupis 6y ago
    > None of the white people are presented in exaggerated, outdated costumes. Outdated? These cartoons were drawn in the 1930's and 40's... 90+ years ago. They were not outdated at the time. Regardless if we find some of these drawings racist by today's standards - they are historical and should be preserved as such. 1984 becomes more real by the day...
    - 6y ago
- offby37years 6y ago
  No. The Chinese have a term for these privileged westerners who exhibit faux-outrage: 圣母婊, 聖母婊 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo
  - cambalache 6y ago
    Why did you copy-paste a related term(Shengmu-Biao ) in both traditional and simplified hanzi?
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  I'm of Chinese descent. I'm much, more more offended by progressives clamoring to take away educational and job opportunities away from Asians because we're "overrepresented minorities" (as if we hadn't earned our place through hard work and education) and then making a mountain out of a molehill like this to pretend that they are actually concerned about Asians as minorities. Compared to two-facedness of that degree, Dr. Seuss's little cartoon doesn't register at all.
WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
This HN topic in two acts. [ACT1] Comment here: "What bothers me is the speed with which this process ... happens. We are not discussing things anymore." [ACT2] jfengel discusses racism. Gets repeatedly downvoted.
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  Because most people disagree this is racist, but the opinion of the plebs is ignored and the deplatformings happen anyway without having a conversation first. Of course this was going to happen.
nerdponx 6y ago
Take a look at the images, and you can see why the publishers felt that they were better off without them. As for why eBay decided to glom onto that... that I can't say. This is the part that bothers me. Publishers can do whatever they want, and it's nice that they're at least willing to try to be progressive, even if this particular case of outrage is maybe a bit exaggerated. Ebay jumping on the bandwagon seems like it's just for brownie points with whatever faux-woke nerd happens to scroll past the announcement.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-printed copies eBay isn't deciding that, it is deciding unilaterally that it will not participate in the buying or selling of those items. eBay probably has no interest and in any case has no power to make decisions about what can be bought and sold, only about what it will participate as a facilitator of buying and selling.

dTal 6y ago
Good point! Well I guess I'll just go and buy my copy at the other well known online auction site... what was it called again? /s eBay has a natural monopoly due to the nature of auctions. If they decide not to list something, it becomes at the very least much harder to trade.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Well I guess I’ll just go and buy my copy at the other well known online auction site… Online auctions aren’t the only places to buy and sell goods. They aren’t even the only places to buy and sell goods online. Plenty of places still selling them (though, because of the announcement that they won’t be published, prices are insane right now, as they’ve become instant high-interest speculative collectibles.)
  - underseacables 6y ago
    I just bought a bunch of Dr. Seuss books because honestly I’ve never seen them before, never read them as a child, but now I’m deeply curious to find out what is in them
  - gsich 6y ago
    This is splitting hairs. ebay deciding that they don't allow buying/selling is obviously restricted to ... well ebay.
- jefftk 6y ago
  eBay clearly has competitors; you could buy or sell a copy on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800818/ https://smile.amazon.com/If-Ran-Zoo-Classic-Seuss/dp/0394800...

gnopgnip 6y ago

Ebay didn't decide it unilaterally, it is in conjunction with the Dr. Seuss estate and Dr. Seuss Enterprises LP

hedora 6y ago
Really? Suppressing secondary markets probably falls afoul of copyright law.
krrrh 6y ago
I really miss the anti-copyright radicalism that used to suffuse hacker culture in the early naughts. The Seuss estate should have the same power to limit publication of these books as Shakespeare’s heirs would have to stop publication of the Merchant of Venice. And if that sounds like it’s going to far can they at least have no say in the right to resale?

quadrifoliate 6y ago

> eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-printed copies eBay is not "unilaterally" deciding anything. I can't remember the last time I bought or sold anything on eBay for instance. As I see it, they probably want to avoid the resulting controversy from any of these items, and don't want anything to do with them on their platform. As an immigrant to the US, this is what I don't get. Isn't the whole idea of capitalism supposed to be that eBay's delisting is an opportunity for ten other websites specializing in obscure Dr. Seuss books to pop up and eat their business? [1] Or would you rather have one centralized government agency in charge of deciding which books can and can't be sold? -------------------------------------------------- [1] What I personally suspect (without much evidence) is that there is very little of a secondary market for these books. Sure, some are going for $500 because people will collect anything, but the person simply doesn't care about them one way or the other.

yellowapple 6y ago
> Isn't the whole idea of capitalism supposed to be that eBay's delisting is an opportunity for ten other websites specializing in obscure Dr. Seuss books to pop up and eat their business? It is. And don't get me wrong: eBay's well within their rights to restrict what people can buy and sell on their platform. It's just weird that this is where they draw the line; the message here seems to be "we're totally fine with selling things depicting racist caricatures, except for these old children's books". That is: eBay having the right to do something does not make them above criticism or scrutiny.
- quadrifoliate 6y ago
  > That is: eBay having the right to do something does not make them above criticism or scrutiny. Yes, the inconsistent policy applications you mention does mean that eBay is a terrible site if you want to find well-vetted products. Honestly, I have never gotten a particularly "trustworthy" vibe from eBay, so this doesn't come as a huge surprise to me.