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Not to mention giving a man a fish does nothing to teach him to fish. Being poor in the US is mostly an attitude problem and there will always be a portion of p

by dokem 6y ago

Not to mention giving a man a fish does nothing to teach him to fish. Being poor in the US is mostly an attitude problem and there will always be a portion of people that lack the correct attitude maintain a job or climb the latter in any meaningful way. If you want to just give these people money to ie keep the crime rate down then that is one discussion to have. But I just roll my eyes when we act like the average poor person just needs a 'jump start' and suddenly they're firing on all cylinders.

anoncake 6y ago
Poverty is not even a mere "attitude problem" in countries with somewhat functional welfare states.
kennywinker 6y ago
> Being poor in the US is mostly an attitude problem This is provably false. Upward mobility, the self made man, and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps are all modern myths sold to keep an unjust social order afloat. The poor work harder than the rich, and VERY rarely manage to make it out of the social class they were born into.
- dokem 6y ago
  The poor work harder than the rich? Have you ever met a poor or rich person? Did you not have kids in high-school that never do any of their work then drop out? That is what the path to poverty looks like. Many are poor because they do no work at all. There is a grand scheme to keep poor people down? What would that look like exactly? How do you keep someone from becoming a truck driver when that is all it takes to escape poverty? The manager at McDonalds is part of the anti-poor scheme also, I suppose? He stands to make sure that his employees that are poor never get a raise or promotion is assistant manager? So no poor person is ever to blame for their situation? And every 'rich' person did nothing and accidentally became that way?
  - chickenpotpie 6y ago
    There is no scheme to keep poor people poor, the system is just setup that obtaining wealth is easier when you have wealth. The number one indicator of a persons ability to make money is the money their parents make, we call this intergenerational wealth. An example of work going further when you’re rich is college. One kid born rich and one kid born poor. Let’s say they both work 60 hours a week. They’re both hard workers, but the poor student has to redirect some of those hours to a job to pay for school and the rich students can dedicate all their hours to school. At 4 years time they both worked exactly as hard, but the rich student has better grades because they could dedicate more time to school. Nobody said that everyone that is poor is exempt from blame or that rich people don’t work. Those were huge jumps in reasoning you made. What they were saying is that you have to work harder when you’re poor to get less because you’re at a disadvantage.
    - cestith 6y ago
      There are some schemes that have kept poor people poor even if that was not the explicit reasoning. Racial redlines do that. Independent school districts funded mostly from hyperlocal real estate taxes do that. Allowing predatory payday loans and huge overdraft fees contribute to it. Treating homelessness and drug use as crimes rather than problems to be solved definitely do that.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    There are poor people who don't work. There are workaholics who don't work, I know a few. Why? Because of mental illness, particularly depression. Poverty is a cause of mental illness. Even if you manage to stay healthy, being poor is still stressful and exhausting. Exhaustion is easily confused for laziness. People who are poor because they don't work generally don't work because they are poor. > So no poor person is ever to blame for their situation? As a matter of fact, they aren't. Even if they are poor just because they're lazy, you have to ask why. Is laziness genetic? Can't blame someone for their genes. Bad upbringing? Not their fault either. Not working on their attitude? Blaming them for being too lazy to do that would be a circular argument. So what do you want to blame them for? That doesn't mean incentivizing people to work is wrong. But being poor is not a moral failure.
- khaki54 6y ago
  "Provably false"? Ok go ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if 1/3 to 1/2 on the people on HN came up from a disadvantaged or poverty background. I don't remember my "very rare" lucky break, but I do remember making a lot of very inconvenient but responsible decisions that took years to pay off.
  - kennywinker 6y ago
    The point is not that you received a lucky break, it's that you DIDN'T receive a smack-down. Your luck was that you didn't have an overwhelming stroke of bad-luck. Unlike people from disadvantaged backgrounds, someone coming from a situation of wealth can get all kinds of strokes of bad luck and still prosper. As for provably false - here's a decent starting place for your research https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/rags-riches https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/rags-riche...
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    I'd be stunned if it were this high. Absolutely stunned. The poverty rate in the US is 10-15%. You are claiming that people born into poverty appear at twice the background rate among techie communities.
akudha 6y ago
1. You had some pot when you were a teenager, ended up in jail. Once you got out of jail, it is near impossible to find a decent job as a felon, even if you had the work ethic and expertise. What is your plan in this case, without outside help? 2. I once worked for a financial services firm in NYC. One day I see this 20 year old intern - sharply dressed, smooth talker. But she did almost no work. I was wondering how did she get the internship. Guess what? Her mom worked there. There must be hundreds of kids who were more qualified than her, but she got (and kept) the internship, thanks to her mom's connections. If you are a poor student, how are you gonna compete with her? 3. I know of people who work as hard as anyone else, still earn the same income year after year. There is near zero chance for promotion. If they switch jobs, it is the same scenario in the new job. What is your advice for them? It is very offensive (and honestly, just plain dumb) to claim that poor people have attitude problem. Upward mobility is not as easy as it is portrayed. Maybe it was easy 40 years ago, not today.
- darthrupert 6y ago
  And the most important 4. You cannot choose your parents and therefore your genes. These determine a lot more about your life than most people want to admit. Like for instance how easy it is for you to work hard. 5. There's a lot of doubt on whether free will even exists.
cafard 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300139
upbeat_general 6y ago
I know that this belief/attitude isn’t just an HN problem but it’s frustratingly common here. It’s truly the worst part of HN imo.

by dokem 6y ago

anoncake 6y ago

Poverty is not even a mere "attitude problem" in countries with somewhat functional welfare states.

kennywinker 6y ago

> Being poor in the US is mostly an attitude problem This is provably false. Upward mobility, the self made man, and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps are all modern myths sold to keep an unjust social order afloat. The poor work harder than the rich, and VERY rarely manage to make it out of the social class they were born into.

dokem 6y ago
The poor work harder than the rich? Have you ever met a poor or rich person? Did you not have kids in high-school that never do any of their work then drop out? That is what the path to poverty looks like. Many are poor because they do no work at all. There is a grand scheme to keep poor people down? What would that look like exactly? How do you keep someone from becoming a truck driver when that is all it takes to escape poverty? The manager at McDonalds is part of the anti-poor scheme also, I suppose? He stands to make sure that his employees that are poor never get a raise or promotion is assistant manager? So no poor person is ever to blame for their situation? And every 'rich' person did nothing and accidentally became that way?
- chickenpotpie 6y ago
  There is no scheme to keep poor people poor, the system is just setup that obtaining wealth is easier when you have wealth. The number one indicator of a persons ability to make money is the money their parents make, we call this intergenerational wealth. An example of work going further when you’re rich is college. One kid born rich and one kid born poor. Let’s say they both work 60 hours a week. They’re both hard workers, but the poor student has to redirect some of those hours to a job to pay for school and the rich students can dedicate all their hours to school. At 4 years time they both worked exactly as hard, but the rich student has better grades because they could dedicate more time to school. Nobody said that everyone that is poor is exempt from blame or that rich people don’t work. Those were huge jumps in reasoning you made. What they were saying is that you have to work harder when you’re poor to get less because you’re at a disadvantage.
  - cestith 6y ago
    There are some schemes that have kept poor people poor even if that was not the explicit reasoning. Racial redlines do that. Independent school districts funded mostly from hyperlocal real estate taxes do that. Allowing predatory payday loans and huge overdraft fees contribute to it. Treating homelessness and drug use as crimes rather than problems to be solved definitely do that.
- anoncake 6y ago
  There are poor people who don't work. There are workaholics who don't work, I know a few. Why? Because of mental illness, particularly depression. Poverty is a cause of mental illness. Even if you manage to stay healthy, being poor is still stressful and exhausting. Exhaustion is easily confused for laziness. People who are poor because they don't work generally don't work because they are poor. > So no poor person is ever to blame for their situation? As a matter of fact, they aren't. Even if they are poor just because they're lazy, you have to ask why. Is laziness genetic? Can't blame someone for their genes. Bad upbringing? Not their fault either. Not working on their attitude? Blaming them for being too lazy to do that would be a circular argument. So what do you want to blame them for? That doesn't mean incentivizing people to work is wrong. But being poor is not a moral failure.
khaki54 6y ago
"Provably false"? Ok go ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if 1/3 to 1/2 on the people on HN came up from a disadvantaged or poverty background. I don't remember my "very rare" lucky break, but I do remember making a lot of very inconvenient but responsible decisions that took years to pay off.
- kennywinker 6y ago
  The point is not that you received a lucky break, it's that you DIDN'T receive a smack-down. Your luck was that you didn't have an overwhelming stroke of bad-luck. Unlike people from disadvantaged backgrounds, someone coming from a situation of wealth can get all kinds of strokes of bad luck and still prosper. As for provably false - here's a decent starting place for your research https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/rags-riches https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/segments/rags-riche...
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  I'd be stunned if it were this high. Absolutely stunned. The poverty rate in the US is 10-15%. You are claiming that people born into poverty appear at twice the background rate among techie communities.

akudha 6y ago

1. You had some pot when you were a teenager, ended up in jail. Once you got out of jail, it is near impossible to find a decent job as a felon, even if you had the work ethic and expertise. What is your plan in this case, without outside help? 2. I once worked for a financial services firm in NYC. One day I see this 20 year old intern - sharply dressed, smooth talker. But she did almost no work. I was wondering how did she get the internship. Guess what? Her mom worked there. There must be hundreds of kids who were more qualified than her, but she got (and kept) the internship, thanks to her mom's connections. If you are a poor student, how are you gonna compete with her? 3. I know of people who work as hard as anyone else, still earn the same income year after year. There is near zero chance for promotion. If they switch jobs, it is the same scenario in the new job. What is your advice for them? It is very offensive (and honestly, just plain dumb) to claim that poor people have attitude problem. Upward mobility is not as easy as it is portrayed. Maybe it was easy 40 years ago, not today.

darthrupert 6y ago
And the most important 4. You cannot choose your parents and therefore your genes. These determine a lot more about your life than most people want to admit. Like for instance how easy it is for you to work hard. 5. There's a lot of doubt on whether free will even exists.

cafard 6y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26300139

upbeat_general 6y ago

I know that this belief/attitude isn’t just an HN problem but it’s frustratingly common here. It’s truly the worst part of HN imo.