9 ms·

Richard Dreyfuss' dramatic reading of the iTunes EULA

217 points by iwwr 15y ago

danssig 15y ago
So when is he doing one for MS, Adobe, Oracle, ....
peterwwillis 15y ago
Can you imagine if companies did this regularly? If people actually "listened" to what they're agreeing to when they use common software? They might actually look for alternative software. New idea: A table on Wikipedia of software and the rights you give up by using it, compared to Free software and the rights you retain.
- glhaynes 15y ago
  Which of the terms of a license agreement like this do you think a significant number of people would find sufficiently onerous to make them go try to find something Free to use instead?
  - staticshock 15y ago
    The purpose of creating such a table would be not to convince people to use alternative software, but just to expose the buried information, and to start a conversation with software users. (Btw, personally, I'd prefer a .com informational website in the vein of www.riaaradar.com instead of a table on wikipedia.)
- mirkules 15y ago
  "New idea: A table on Wikipedia of software and the rights you give up by using it, compared to Free software and the rights you retain." IMO, an obscure table on Wikipedia is not going to make anyone stop using software. EULAs were designed to make people "click through," and even if they DID read them, they generally wouldn't care if the software did what they needed it to do. I propose instead that whoever is interested in making Free software that they make quality software that people want to use. Apache, Firefox, and FileZilla are good examples of this (ok FileZilla may be stretching it, but see below). GIMP and OpenOffice are not. Personally, I will jump through some hoops to get stuff working, but if it seems like it's going to be a time-sink just to edit a photo, open a .docx file or some other trivial task, I'm going to download and use whatever gets me there faster. I might get downvoted for saying this, but I'm just not going to waste my time configuring half-baked software when there are quality commercial alternatives available (and same goes in reverse, in the case of Apache, for example).
  - Jd 15y ago
    You are absolutely right but there are a great quantity of Hackers who will downmod you (or me) for simply suggesting that OpenOffice is not an adequate substitute for the M$FT version. The dogmatism on these issues is sufficient deterrent and frequently I would rather avoid stating the truth than face the wrath of the FSF enthusiasts.
    - ajscherer 15y ago
      I agree with you that people can get pretty worked up about the topic of free software, but I think you need to be a bit braver in the face of downvoting and disagreement. I can't ever recall seeing a respectful, well-thought post getting downvoted below 0 on hacker news. One tactic for this situation is to post your truth then never look at the thread again. It might be rude to people who want to engage in honest discussion on your point, but if your post was a good one it will still benefit the hn community more than not posting at all, and you won't have to stress about troll replies. Just be respectful. Assume the people reading your post are as smart as you and your post won't get hammered.
      - Jd 15y ago
        I've been downvoted below zero plenty of times -- sometimes when I am attempting to present a non-standard potentially provocative opinion -- but often not. I've also had comments that started off w/ a few upvotes and then went south to -4, and others that started off w/ a few downvotes and went up (this is less frequent). I think part of the problem is you get penalized pretty quickly w/ the shading differences, and people are happy to knock you down. Believe it or not, the post you are responding to go at least one downvote before the upvotes boosted it back to normal text color. As for your tactic for "post[ing] your truth" this doesn't work so much if it does get downvoted, since it fairly quickly becomes near invisible.
      - Jd 15y ago
        update: the post you are responding dropped to 0, went up to 3 (presumably both upvoted and downvoted along the way), and has dropped again to 1. I find these trends fascinating.
DanielStraight 15y ago
The "termination" one highlights a particularly absurd aspect of the EULA. You are supposed to do something specific on termination of the license, but they aren't required to tell you it's terminated?
- brazzy 15y ago
  The most absurd aspect of EULAs is that in many (if not most) legislations, either the entire concept is legally invalid, or most of the clauses are (and most of the others are superfluous due to existing laws). Yet companies keep paying lawyers to write the things. It's some sort of combination of a wishlist and jurisitcal masturbation.
dave84 15y ago
I imagine this is what Wil Wheaton hears in his head when he's reading EULAs. With that out of the way, would it be possible to represent EULAs in a simpler manner while still satisfying a company's legal department?
- scott_s 15y ago
  Probably - there's an excellent Planet Money story on doing the same thing with credit card agreements. I can only find two segments online. One where they talk to someone who writes them (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/04/21/134633336/why-are-credit-card-agreements-so-long http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/04/21/134633336/why-are-...), and one where they get 4th graders to read them (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/03/18/134664249/the-friday-podcast-4th-graders-read-a-credit-card-agreement http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/03/18/134664249/the-frid...). That latter links to a simplified notice. It takes a lot of effort, and they're only going to do it if required by law.
michaelfeathers 15y ago
I'm aching for someone to put a dub beat behind this, bongos, or some Greek Bouzouki.
- duggan 15y ago
  How bout this - http://soundcloud.com/rduggan/richard-dreyfuss-battle-cry http://soundcloud.com/rduggan/richard-dreyfuss-battle-cry
pama 15y ago
Excellent! This is the best answer to the question: "Who reads the EULA?"
leftnode 15y ago
There's a recent South Park episode parodying the length and absurdity of Apple's EULA's and terms of agreement. The whole episode is great and does a pretty good job of goofing on Apple fanboyism.
- brudgers 15y ago
  Link: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e01-humancentipad http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e01-humance...
  - kleiba 15y ago
    "Due to copyright and other legal reasons, South Park video content cannot be viewed outside the United States."
    - visakhcr 15y ago
      It happens with Amazon videos and the iTunes one also..not available outside the US!
    - rickmb 15y ago
      Now add the fact that Richard Dreyfuss' fame and fortune comes mostly from the entertainment industry with its ridiculously restrictive licensing (which doesn't allow me to see his film work online, since I'm in a "wrong" country), and the irony comes full circle. Personally, I'd rather click "Ok" on a absurd (and unread) EULA than to not have access to the product at all.
      - StavrosK 15y ago
        Which is exactly what the South Park episode parodies. Oh, the meta-irony!
      - carussell 15y ago
        Your "no access to the product" of course includes a caveat, which is that you haven't paid for the product. If you apply the same caveat to the EULA-bound Apple products, the net effect is the same: "no access to the product". So no irony here, not even Alanis's flavor.
napierzaza 15y ago
Does he take requests, I'd like to hear him do the "Think Different" ad again.
cpg 15y ago
Hilarious. What we need is Shatner reading it, with bongs and all, a la Palin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpbSwSlP4Yc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpbSwSlP4Yc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mLvzARScak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mLvzARScak
edkennedy 15y ago
I find the link at the end of the article most interesting of all. http://www.thedreyfussinitiative.org/ http://www.thedreyfussinitiative.org/
- felipe 15y ago
  Richard Dreyfuss is an outspoken civics activist and scholar. I believe he even lectures at Oxford. And it's no coincidence that he played Dick Cheney on Oliver Stone's W.
pornel 15y ago
I do not want to accept iTunes EULA, but I feel like I'm blackmailed to do it: if I don't, I'll loose ability to synchronize/activate/restore my phone, I won't be able to update or download any applications for it. With cable-free iOS5 it looks like there isn't even a choice — you either accept iTunes EULA or you won't get past Welcome screen. I'm locked-in and I have to perpetually "agree" to whatever Apple comes up with.
- dspillett 15y ago
  > I'm locked-in and I have to perpetually "agree" to whatever Apple comes up with. If it bothers you, get out before you are locked in further. Stop buying new content via Apple's store, don't buy any more Apple (or Apple licensed) products and buy yourself something else to replace the functions the device has for you. If the people who don't like being locked in but just accept it anyway and keep paying, Apple will never change as they won't need to. People like me who refuse to even join the game obviously don't seem to be a concern for them.
- vacri 15y ago
  Perhaps try another kind of smartphone? There are some really nice models out there.
itswindy 15y ago
Stop bashing Apple if you are using a MAC. Read its EULA, you agreed not to say anything bad about Apple when you first bought your Mac. :) God knows what I agreed to when I installed XP.

217 points by iwwr 15y ago

So when is he doing one for MS, Adobe, Oracle, ....

Can you imagine if companies did this regularly? If people actually "listened" to what they're agreeing to when they use common software? They might actually look for alternative software. New idea: A table on Wikipedia of software and the rights you give up by using it, compared to Free software and the rights you retain.

glhaynes 15y ago
Which of the terms of a license agreement like this do you think a significant number of people would find sufficiently onerous to make them go try to find something Free to use instead?
- staticshock 15y ago
  The purpose of creating such a table would be not to convince people to use alternative software, but just to expose the buried information, and to start a conversation with software users. (Btw, personally, I'd prefer a .com informational website in the vein of www.riaaradar.com instead of a table on wikipedia.)
mirkules 15y ago
"New idea: A table on Wikipedia of software and the rights you give up by using it, compared to Free software and the rights you retain." IMO, an obscure table on Wikipedia is not going to make anyone stop using software. EULAs were designed to make people "click through," and even if they DID read them, they generally wouldn't care if the software did what they needed it to do. I propose instead that whoever is interested in making Free software that they make quality software that people want to use. Apache, Firefox, and FileZilla are good examples of this (ok FileZilla may be stretching it, but see below). GIMP and OpenOffice are not. Personally, I will jump through some hoops to get stuff working, but if it seems like it's going to be a time-sink just to edit a photo, open a .docx file or some other trivial task, I'm going to download and use whatever gets me there faster. I might get downvoted for saying this, but I'm just not going to waste my time configuring half-baked software when there are quality commercial alternatives available (and same goes in reverse, in the case of Apache, for example).
- Jd 15y ago
  You are absolutely right but there are a great quantity of Hackers who will downmod you (or me) for simply suggesting that OpenOffice is not an adequate substitute for the M$FT version. The dogmatism on these issues is sufficient deterrent and frequently I would rather avoid stating the truth than face the wrath of the FSF enthusiasts.
  - ajscherer 15y ago
    I agree with you that people can get pretty worked up about the topic of free software, but I think you need to be a bit braver in the face of downvoting and disagreement. I can't ever recall seeing a respectful, well-thought post getting downvoted below 0 on hacker news. One tactic for this situation is to post your truth then never look at the thread again. It might be rude to people who want to engage in honest discussion on your point, but if your post was a good one it will still benefit the hn community more than not posting at all, and you won't have to stress about troll replies. Just be respectful. Assume the people reading your post are as smart as you and your post won't get hammered.
    - Jd 15y ago
      I've been downvoted below zero plenty of times -- sometimes when I am attempting to present a non-standard potentially provocative opinion -- but often not. I've also had comments that started off w/ a few upvotes and then went south to -4, and others that started off w/ a few downvotes and went up (this is less frequent). I think part of the problem is you get penalized pretty quickly w/ the shading differences, and people are happy to knock you down. Believe it or not, the post you are responding to go at least one downvote before the upvotes boosted it back to normal text color. As for your tactic for "post[ing] your truth" this doesn't work so much if it does get downvoted, since it fairly quickly becomes near invisible.
    - Jd 15y ago
      update: the post you are responding dropped to 0, went up to 3 (presumably both upvoted and downvoted along the way), and has dropped again to 1. I find these trends fascinating.

DanielStraight 15y ago

The "termination" one highlights a particularly absurd aspect of the EULA. You are supposed to do something specific on termination of the license, but they aren't required to tell you it's terminated?

brazzy 15y ago
The most absurd aspect of EULAs is that in many (if not most) legislations, either the entire concept is legally invalid, or most of the clauses are (and most of the others are superfluous due to existing laws). Yet companies keep paying lawyers to write the things. It's some sort of combination of a wishlist and jurisitcal masturbation.

dave84 15y ago

I imagine this is what Wil Wheaton hears in his head when he's reading EULAs. With that out of the way, would it be possible to represent EULAs in a simpler manner while still satisfying a company's legal department?

scott_s 15y ago
Probably - there's an excellent Planet Money story on doing the same thing with credit card agreements. I can only find two segments online. One where they talk to someone who writes them (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/04/21/134633336/why-are-credit-card-agreements-so-long http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/04/21/134633336/why-are-...), and one where they get 4th graders to read them (http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/03/18/134664249/the-friday-podcast-4th-graders-read-a-credit-card-agreement http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/03/18/134664249/the-frid...). That latter links to a simplified notice. It takes a lot of effort, and they're only going to do it if required by law.

michaelfeathers 15y ago

I'm aching for someone to put a dub beat behind this, bongos, or some Greek Bouzouki.

duggan 15y ago
How bout this - http://soundcloud.com/rduggan/richard-dreyfuss-battle-cry http://soundcloud.com/rduggan/richard-dreyfuss-battle-cry

pama 15y ago

Excellent! This is the best answer to the question: "Who reads the EULA?"

leftnode 15y ago

There's a recent South Park episode parodying the length and absurdity of Apple's EULA's and terms of agreement. The whole episode is great and does a pretty good job of goofing on Apple fanboyism.

brudgers 15y ago
Link: http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e01-humancentipad http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e01-humance...
- kleiba 15y ago
  "Due to copyright and other legal reasons, South Park video content cannot be viewed outside the United States."
  - visakhcr 15y ago
    It happens with Amazon videos and the iTunes one also..not available outside the US!
  - rickmb 15y ago
    Now add the fact that Richard Dreyfuss' fame and fortune comes mostly from the entertainment industry with its ridiculously restrictive licensing (which doesn't allow me to see his film work online, since I'm in a "wrong" country), and the irony comes full circle. Personally, I'd rather click "Ok" on a absurd (and unread) EULA than to not have access to the product at all.
    - StavrosK 15y ago
      Which is exactly what the South Park episode parodies. Oh, the meta-irony!
    - carussell 15y ago
      Your "no access to the product" of course includes a caveat, which is that you haven't paid for the product. If you apply the same caveat to the EULA-bound Apple products, the net effect is the same: "no access to the product". So no irony here, not even Alanis's flavor.

napierzaza 15y ago

Does he take requests, I'd like to hear him do the "Think Different" ad again.

cpg 15y ago

Hilarious. What we need is Shatner reading it, with bongs and all, a la Palin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpbSwSlP4Yc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpbSwSlP4Yc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mLvzARScak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mLvzARScak

edkennedy 15y ago

I find the link at the end of the article most interesting of all. http://www.thedreyfussinitiative.org/ http://www.thedreyfussinitiative.org/

felipe 15y ago
Richard Dreyfuss is an outspoken civics activist and scholar. I believe he even lectures at Oxford. And it's no coincidence that he played Dick Cheney on Oliver Stone's W.

pornel 15y ago

I do not want to accept iTunes EULA, but I feel like I'm blackmailed to do it: if I don't, I'll loose ability to synchronize/activate/restore my phone, I won't be able to update or download any applications for it. With cable-free iOS5 it looks like there isn't even a choice — you either accept iTunes EULA or you won't get past Welcome screen. I'm locked-in and I have to perpetually "agree" to whatever Apple comes up with.

dspillett 15y ago
> I'm locked-in and I have to perpetually "agree" to whatever Apple comes up with. If it bothers you, get out before you are locked in further. Stop buying new content via Apple's store, don't buy any more Apple (or Apple licensed) products and buy yourself something else to replace the functions the device has for you. If the people who don't like being locked in but just accept it anyway and keep paying, Apple will never change as they won't need to. People like me who refuse to even join the game obviously don't seem to be a concern for them.
vacri 15y ago
Perhaps try another kind of smartphone? There are some really nice models out there.

itswindy 15y ago

Stop bashing Apple if you are using a MAC. Read its EULA, you agreed not to say anything bad about Apple when you first bought your Mac. :) God knows what I agreed to when I installed XP.