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Counterpoint: let's say I hate the effect that car-ownership has had on society - you can't just tell me "well then you should just choose not to own a car". Th

by defen 6y ago

Counterpoint: let's say I hate the effect that car-ownership has had on society - you can't just tell me "well then you should just choose not to own a car". The problem is that society itself has been reshaped around the assumption that essentially everyone has a car. For the vast majority of people in the vast majority of locations in the USA, it's simply not viable to live without a car, or ready access to one. That doesn't mean I should be able to reshape all of society according to my whims, but it seems flippant to dismiss the material circumstances that make single-breadwinner families economically infeasible for most American families by saying that people can just choose to live that life if they want.

sokoloff 6y ago
What you say is true, but partly orthogonal. If not owning a car is one of the most important things to you, then as a friend, I would counsel you to arrange your life to prioritize that. Live in NYC or Boston. Or Amsterdam or Paris. In all of those places, car ownership is a net negative and so you'll find a lot of life arranged to assume you don't own a car and as a result, a lot of like-minded people. If your frustration is that many others choose to own a car and prioritize their consumption differently, again as a friend I would tell you in the most polite way I could muster to make your choices based on your values and let others make their choices based on their values. You can also try to reshape all of society or some small corner of it, but first and foremost, I'd advise you to make pragmatic choices to improve your daily existence.
- defen 6y ago
  > arrange your life to prioritize that. Live in NYC or Boston. Or Amsterdam or Paris. In all of those places, car ownership is a net negative and so you'll find a lot of life arranged to assume you don't own a car and as a result, a lot of like-minded people. That was indeed my point - "just go live in NYC or Boston" is not realistic for most people for a variety of reasons.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    What I internalize from that is that the life optimization function coefficient on "live without a car" is not high enough for that person to outweigh the coefficients and input variables on other quality of life factors. If "live without a car" was 1.0 and all other factors were 0.0, they'd decide to go live in NYC/Boston/someplace else that optimized that. Since they don't, they have other factors that they are weighing (probably implicitly) to conclude that they shouldn't do that. No one can have everything they want. Most people can have the one thing they want most in the world, if they're willing to make enough other sacrifices to get it.
munk-a 6y ago
I hate the effect that car-ownership has had on society and I refuse to own a car personally. I advocate for urban planning that reinforces walkable neighborhoods and tighter parking restrictions and choose to live in a city which isn't completely foot-friendly but is better than most. Choosing to live car-free does impose restrictions on my freedom of movement, but it only prevents me from going to places I have no desire to go to. I'd also say it's absolutely fine to try and reshape all of society according to your whims - that's sort of what everyone is doing in a democracy constantly. Just don't get upset if some folks object and it doesn't work.

by defen 6y ago

sokoloff 6y ago

What you say is true, but partly orthogonal. If not owning a car is one of the most important things to you, then as a friend, I would counsel you to arrange your life to prioritize that. Live in NYC or Boston. Or Amsterdam or Paris. In all of those places, car ownership is a net negative and so you'll find a lot of life arranged to assume you don't own a car and as a result, a lot of like-minded people. If your frustration is that many others choose to own a car and prioritize their consumption differently, again as a friend I would tell you in the most polite way I could muster to make your choices based on your values and let others make their choices based on their values. You can also try to reshape all of society or some small corner of it, but first and foremost, I'd advise you to make pragmatic choices to improve your daily existence.

defen 6y ago
> arrange your life to prioritize that. Live in NYC or Boston. Or Amsterdam or Paris. In all of those places, car ownership is a net negative and so you'll find a lot of life arranged to assume you don't own a car and as a result, a lot of like-minded people. That was indeed my point - "just go live in NYC or Boston" is not realistic for most people for a variety of reasons.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  What I internalize from that is that the life optimization function coefficient on "live without a car" is not high enough for that person to outweigh the coefficients and input variables on other quality of life factors. If "live without a car" was 1.0 and all other factors were 0.0, they'd decide to go live in NYC/Boston/someplace else that optimized that. Since they don't, they have other factors that they are weighing (probably implicitly) to conclude that they shouldn't do that. No one can have everything they want. Most people can have the one thing they want most in the world, if they're willing to make enough other sacrifices to get it.

munk-a 6y ago

I hate the effect that car-ownership has had on society and I refuse to own a car personally. I advocate for urban planning that reinforces walkable neighborhoods and tighter parking restrictions and choose to live in a city which isn't completely foot-friendly but is better than most. Choosing to live car-free does impose restrictions on my freedom of movement, but it only prevents me from going to places I have no desire to go to. I'd also say it's absolutely fine to try and reshape all of society according to your whims - that's sort of what everyone is doing in a democracy constantly. Just don't get upset if some folks object and it doesn't work.