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> Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Why do we assume that those behaviors are inherently a man's? Women that have a drive to become business le

> Why do women have to emulate men to be valuable? Why do we assume that those behaviors are inherently a man's? Women that have a drive to become business leaders do so for personal reasons and not to emulate anyone (except perhaps personal heroes who could happen to be women). You later speak about a wish to become a stay-at-home father. Is this emulating women or is it a wish based on activities that are not inherently gendered such as cooking and taking care of children?

dcow 6y ago
My point is not that these behaviors are inherently those of a man. It’s that success should be defined much more broadly than “things men traditionally do”. I think we are in agreement on that I may have not done the best job at capturing the point.
- Karawebnetwork 6y ago
  But is being a start-up founder really something that men traditionally do or is it a completely new role that people of all genders can aim for? This role can be toxic and lead to problematic behaviours that can worsen a person's personal life and mental health, regardless of their gender identity.
  - africanboy 6y ago
    it's something that men have traditionally done, yes. it's like the beard, it's traditionally something that, in general, men have and women don't. that doesn't mean that things can't change in the future and that the change won't be for the better.
    - Karawebnetwork 6y ago
      Some of my personal idols from the past are Coco Chanel, Estée Lauder and Katharine Graham. That would be women born in the 1880's, 1900's and early 1920's. While few women had the privilege required to focus on their career, it was still present. At what point should we mark something as "tradition"? Remember that the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was not a thing until 1974. Until then, banks required single, widowed or divorced women to bring a man along to cosign any credit application, regardless of their income.
      - africanboy 6y ago
        I'm not American, so I know nothing about the equal credit opportunity, sorry. I also think that traditions in USA is used to mean inertia ("things have always been done that way" etc.), but US are a very bad country for female workers for reasons that go beyond traditions. My country has its share of remarkable women, Miuccia Prada is one of them and she's still alive and well, Fabiola Giannotti is Italian and the first female director of CERN, Maria Montessori (1870) the inventor of the Montessori educational method was Italian,Grazia Deledda was the second woman in history to win a Nobel price in 1926 and the first Italian woman and the list could go on, the fact is that until not long ago men and women had different jobs because it was required by the job. See construction for example, you don't see women in construction. Traditionally, if we talk about the entire World, means since at least hominids have settled down and started farming. Luckily things are changing, but there's still the question: do really women want that? I'm not questioning their abilited here, but the idea that having the choice they would chose to be part of something that men have built in their image at their rules. For example in Scandinavia where gender equality is higher than everywhere else in the western World, women are less keen to attend STEM faculties because they are too hard for too little reward. They can make more money working as lawyers or for the government, having also more time to do what they like, including spending it raising their kids and with their families. Once they reached equality (same opportunities) they started to chose because they don't have to prove anything to the others. EDIT: if you think about it we Italians are usually laughed of because we live with our "mamma" and talk a lot about the "famiglia", we are " those lazy Italians" but that's the reason why being a housewife here it's not a stigma. Housewives are not rewarded enough in Italy, but being one it's not the end of your social life. On the contrary in USA (in particular) not working to death is frowned upon, free time is for the lazy people, "work hard and the American dream will come true", these are the kinds of " traditions " that make it impossible to be a woman, a mother and a successful business woman, to the point that paid maternity leave is not even a right! Here in Italy, which is not the best country in the World about maternity policies, women have 5 mandatory months of paid maternity leave during which they can't be at work, it's mandatory that they abstein from it. The period can be extended if the medical conditions require (or suggest) it. Paradoxically younger generations that grew up on social media immersed in American culture, see things the same way and have a very hard time accepting that not being highly succesful at work (or in general) is not the end of the World and they also think that being an housewife is a failure. full disclosure: there haven't been housewives in my family at least in the past three generations, so I am not saying it because I wish for women to stay home and take care of the kids.
kmclean 6y ago
This! Women who get into business or tech or whatever aren't "emulating men". Many are actually genuinely interested in those pursuits. A lot of women just do not want to be homemakers. Many do, sure, and it should be a viable option without stigma, but for at least half it would be hell and we should allow women to pursue their interests and desires.
africanboy 6y ago
I don't think that the intention was that, but since we are commenting on an article that suggest to women to "freeze their eggs" while pursuing a carreer as a founder, it's probably honest to acknowledge the fact that men don't need to freeze their eggs if they want to have kids later in their lives and can have them while pursuing a career because, in some countries more than others, like in the US for example, women are highly penalized for the fact that they can get pregnant. So it's less a men's problem than it is a women's problem.

dcow 6y ago

My point is not that these behaviors are inherently those of a man. It’s that success should be defined much more broadly than “things men traditionally do”. I think we are in agreement on that I may have not done the best job at capturing the point.

Karawebnetwork 6y ago
But is being a start-up founder really something that men traditionally do or is it a completely new role that people of all genders can aim for? This role can be toxic and lead to problematic behaviours that can worsen a person's personal life and mental health, regardless of their gender identity.
- africanboy 6y ago
  it's something that men have traditionally done, yes. it's like the beard, it's traditionally something that, in general, men have and women don't. that doesn't mean that things can't change in the future and that the change won't be for the better.
  - Karawebnetwork 6y ago
    Some of my personal idols from the past are Coco Chanel, Estée Lauder and Katharine Graham. That would be women born in the 1880's, 1900's and early 1920's. While few women had the privilege required to focus on their career, it was still present. At what point should we mark something as "tradition"? Remember that the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was not a thing until 1974. Until then, banks required single, widowed or divorced women to bring a man along to cosign any credit application, regardless of their income.
    - africanboy 6y ago
      I'm not American, so I know nothing about the equal credit opportunity, sorry. I also think that traditions in USA is used to mean inertia ("things have always been done that way" etc.), but US are a very bad country for female workers for reasons that go beyond traditions. My country has its share of remarkable women, Miuccia Prada is one of them and she's still alive and well, Fabiola Giannotti is Italian and the first female director of CERN, Maria Montessori (1870) the inventor of the Montessori educational method was Italian,Grazia Deledda was the second woman in history to win a Nobel price in 1926 and the first Italian woman and the list could go on, the fact is that until not long ago men and women had different jobs because it was required by the job. See construction for example, you don't see women in construction. Traditionally, if we talk about the entire World, means since at least hominids have settled down and started farming. Luckily things are changing, but there's still the question: do really women want that? I'm not questioning their abilited here, but the idea that having the choice they would chose to be part of something that men have built in their image at their rules. For example in Scandinavia where gender equality is higher than everywhere else in the western World, women are less keen to attend STEM faculties because they are too hard for too little reward. They can make more money working as lawyers or for the government, having also more time to do what they like, including spending it raising their kids and with their families. Once they reached equality (same opportunities) they started to chose because they don't have to prove anything to the others. EDIT: if you think about it we Italians are usually laughed of because we live with our "mamma" and talk a lot about the "famiglia", we are " those lazy Italians" but that's the reason why being a housewife here it's not a stigma. Housewives are not rewarded enough in Italy, but being one it's not the end of your social life. On the contrary in USA (in particular) not working to death is frowned upon, free time is for the lazy people, "work hard and the American dream will come true", these are the kinds of " traditions " that make it impossible to be a woman, a mother and a successful business woman, to the point that paid maternity leave is not even a right! Here in Italy, which is not the best country in the World about maternity policies, women have 5 mandatory months of paid maternity leave during which they can't be at work, it's mandatory that they abstein from it. The period can be extended if the medical conditions require (or suggest) it. Paradoxically younger generations that grew up on social media immersed in American culture, see things the same way and have a very hard time accepting that not being highly succesful at work (or in general) is not the end of the World and they also think that being an housewife is a failure. full disclosure: there haven't been housewives in my family at least in the past three generations, so I am not saying it because I wish for women to stay home and take care of the kids.

kmclean 6y ago

This! Women who get into business or tech or whatever aren't "emulating men". Many are actually genuinely interested in those pursuits. A lot of women just do not want to be homemakers. Many do, sure, and it should be a viable option without stigma, but for at least half it would be hell and we should allow women to pursue their interests and desires.

africanboy 6y ago

I don't think that the intention was that, but since we are commenting on an article that suggest to women to "freeze their eggs" while pursuing a carreer as a founder, it's probably honest to acknowledge the fact that men don't need to freeze their eggs if they want to have kids later in their lives and can have them while pursuing a career because, in some countries more than others, like in the US for example, women are highly penalized for the fact that they can get pregnant. So it's less a men's problem than it is a women's problem.