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Having a hard time finding the raw data. Anyone have a link? Doing some digging, this article provides a few better data points: https://ktla.com/news/californ

Having a hard time finding the raw data. Anyone have a link? Doing some digging, this article provides a few better data points: https://ktla.com/news/california/employment-rose-among-those-in-stocktons-universal-basic-income-experiment-study/ https://ktla.com/news/california/employment-rose-among-those... They act rosy about the experiment... but I have issues. >When the program started in February 2019, 28% of the people slated to get the free money had full-time jobs. One year later, 40% of those people had full-time jobs. 125 recipients. 12% found jobs during the program. Later it says there was a control group where only 5% found full time jobs, but I couldn't find hard numbers. I mean, another 16 people finding fulltime work is good... but job quality? Any median household income increase sans UBI payment? And to be honest, 12% doesn't seem that great. >People got the money once a month on a debit card, which let researchers track how most of the people spent it. Less than 1% of the money went to tobacco and alcohol. Do... do I really have to point this out? Maybe because they used their regular income, untracked debit card instead. Is that really hard to believe? All the quotes from participants saying how much greater their life is from both the WP article and this one... perfect score across the board, huh. I mean, everyone interviewed at a catholic church for a catholic newsletter talks about how great the priest is with children too.

shaftway 6y ago
> another 16 people finding fulltime work is good... but job quality? I agree, and I'd certainly like to see much deeper data here, but these numbers are way too small to see any real macro pictures. However, I'd consider this a win even if these people took jobs making less money but doing something they were passionate about. > Maybe because they used their regular income, untracked debit card instead. Maybe, but a lot of people I know that aren't as well off wouldn't have really cared, or even used that card first for those kinds of purchases. > All the quotes from participants saying how much greater their life is from both the WP article and this one... perfect score across the board. You're giving people free money. If you gave me $500/mo, no strings attached I'd give it pretty high marks too, even though it's not something that I need. I may have some suggestions about how to be more efficient, but I certainly wouldn't complain. Personally I'm cautiously pro-UBI. I think it could be a great tool to make the country far better, not just for the poor, but for everybody. I think that it would add to everyone's security and enable people to prepare for and perform jobs that they want to do, instead of jobs that they are forced to choose due to lack of alternatives. I strongly suspect I'll be in the tax bracket that will end up net negative and pay for this instead of the brackets that benefit directly from it, but just like public schools benefit me indirectly, I suspect that this will be worth it for me. But without data I classify those thoughts as theories. I'd like to see large-scale data on this, and we won't see experiments at the scale I'd like to see (like counties with large cities in them) without these smaller experiments first.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  > I'd like to see (like counties with large cities in them) without these smaller experiments first. New Zealand gives money to everyone over 65 and it’s not means tested. Is this different to what you are suggesting? I don’t get why we wouldn’t apply the same to a younger group, at least as a test.
- matbatt38 6y ago
  Well actually if you don't know about it, in France there is a ~500$ kind of ubi. It's not exactly universal as you have to be poor enough to get the money and the system is made with lots of incentives for people to get a job ASAP, but if you want to, you can easily live on those 500$/mo(+free healthcare) your entire life if you're off-grid enough). I understand that it's different, but it's the closest thing I've seen to UBI in a relatively big area. There's lots of data about it :)
  - cestith 6y ago
    It's not much and it's an expensive place to live, but Alaska pays each citizen a dividend each year. They do this from funds generated for the state from the oil and gas industry. It seems last year it was $992. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alaska/articles/2020-06-12/alaska-dividend-set-at-992-to-be-paid-starting-july-1 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alaska/articles/2020... I can imagine if the US federal government does the wealth tax Warren is pushing, closes some of the loopholes in corporate taxes, and then uses that for UBI it will help twofold.: The UBI itself and wages, being a legitimately deductible business expense, might just start rising more quickly.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - Zababa 6y ago
    Adding to that, here's the Wikipedia page for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenu_de_solidarit%C3%A9_active https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenu_de_solidarit%C3%A9_acti...
aaron695 6y ago
I don't get the point of all this, many countries have unemployment benefits. But the report is below > Less than 1% of the money went to tobacco and alcohol. This is a huge problem, if it's unconditional (is it unconditional?) then way more than 1% should be spent on these. These are fundamental parts of human life. If the people you are helping can't be alive, why do we even care about them. > but job quality? I disagree with this, even if it's low quality, it's the first step. Unless there's a perverse incentive acting on the group, like a case manager shoving them into temporary jobs for the audit, it's being picky. https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/press-landing/guaranteed-income-increases-employment-improves-financial-and-physical-health https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/press-landing/guarante... Report - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6039d612b17d055cac14070f/t/603ef1194c474b329f33c329/1614737690661/SEED_Preliminary+Analysis-SEEDs+First+Year_Final+Report_Individual+Pages+-2.pdf https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6039d612b17d055cac140...
- NoOneNew 6y ago
  > like a case manager shoving them into temporary jobs for the audit, it's being picky I should have been more clear. Yes, this is exactly what I'm afraid of. 12% of the participants got a new full-time job. Sure, the others who already had full time jobs could have moved up in rank or got a raise, didn't notice that mentioned in the article though. I'd figure that would be a highlight topic. Anyways, only 12% feels like it was that last ditch effort of temp work to make the program look better. A first step, honest full time job, even low quality, that's good. I can't argue with that. But if it was just a temp job shoved on them for the reporting factor... why was the program needed then? Just force people into temp agencies if that's how you're going to pump up your numbers (which I'm not advocating for). >This is a huge problem, if it's unconditional (is it unconditional?) then way more than 1% should be spent on these. Don't get me wrong. I drink and smoke. I don't care if these folks do as well. God knows when I'm stressed the hell out, a good black out drinking session, next morning death like hangover can be a really good mental reset. I have a problem with reporting, "Oh look how great our program worked, people didn't buy booze or cigs." It's such a weird thing to point out a borderline meaningless topic, that I feel like they're hiding something there. Even if I gave a shit they were buying vices, don't piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining. They used an outside source of money to do so just to make sure the case managers don't get pissed off with them or we're talking about cooked books. Thanks for the links. Even though I'm a negative nancy about this, I'm interested in the results. My thing is, I just want the excel files. I hate well designed reports. I've gone through enough gov and private sector proposals and reports filled with happy faces and magical number results, I want to live in a cave and renounce my citizenship with the human race. Hungry wolves don't bullshit you before draining you of your blood.

shaftway 6y ago

> another 16 people finding fulltime work is good... but job quality? I agree, and I'd certainly like to see much deeper data here, but these numbers are way too small to see any real macro pictures. However, I'd consider this a win even if these people took jobs making less money but doing something they were passionate about. > Maybe because they used their regular income, untracked debit card instead. Maybe, but a lot of people I know that aren't as well off wouldn't have really cared, or even used that card first for those kinds of purchases. > All the quotes from participants saying how much greater their life is from both the WP article and this one... perfect score across the board. You're giving people free money. If you gave me $500/mo, no strings attached I'd give it pretty high marks too, even though it's not something that I need. I may have some suggestions about how to be more efficient, but I certainly wouldn't complain. Personally I'm cautiously pro-UBI. I think it could be a great tool to make the country far better, not just for the poor, but for everybody. I think that it would add to everyone's security and enable people to prepare for and perform jobs that they want to do, instead of jobs that they are forced to choose due to lack of alternatives. I strongly suspect I'll be in the tax bracket that will end up net negative and pay for this instead of the brackets that benefit directly from it, but just like public schools benefit me indirectly, I suspect that this will be worth it for me. But without data I classify those thoughts as theories. I'd like to see large-scale data on this, and we won't see experiments at the scale I'd like to see (like counties with large cities in them) without these smaller experiments first.

lostlogin 6y ago
> I'd like to see (like counties with large cities in them) without these smaller experiments first. New Zealand gives money to everyone over 65 and it’s not means tested. Is this different to what you are suggesting? I don’t get why we wouldn’t apply the same to a younger group, at least as a test.
matbatt38 6y ago
Well actually if you don't know about it, in France there is a ~500$ kind of ubi. It's not exactly universal as you have to be poor enough to get the money and the system is made with lots of incentives for people to get a job ASAP, but if you want to, you can easily live on those 500$/mo(+free healthcare) your entire life if you're off-grid enough). I understand that it's different, but it's the closest thing I've seen to UBI in a relatively big area. There's lots of data about it :)
- cestith 6y ago
  It's not much and it's an expensive place to live, but Alaska pays each citizen a dividend each year. They do this from funds generated for the state from the oil and gas industry. It seems last year it was $992. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alaska/articles/2020-06-12/alaska-dividend-set-at-992-to-be-paid-starting-july-1 https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/alaska/articles/2020... I can imagine if the US federal government does the wealth tax Warren is pushing, closes some of the loopholes in corporate taxes, and then uses that for UBI it will help twofold.: The UBI itself and wages, being a legitimately deductible business expense, might just start rising more quickly.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Zababa 6y ago
  Adding to that, here's the Wikipedia page for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenu_de_solidarit%C3%A9_active https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenu_de_solidarit%C3%A9_acti...

aaron695 6y ago

I don't get the point of all this, many countries have unemployment benefits. But the report is below > Less than 1% of the money went to tobacco and alcohol. This is a huge problem, if it's unconditional (is it unconditional?) then way more than 1% should be spent on these. These are fundamental parts of human life. If the people you are helping can't be alive, why do we even care about them. > but job quality? I disagree with this, even if it's low quality, it's the first step. Unless there's a perverse incentive acting on the group, like a case manager shoving them into temporary jobs for the audit, it's being picky. https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/press-landing/guaranteed-income-increases-employment-improves-financial-and-physical-health https://www.stocktondemonstration.org/press-landing/guarante... Report - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6039d612b17d055cac14070f/t/603ef1194c474b329f33c329/1614737690661/SEED_Preliminary+Analysis-SEEDs+First+Year_Final+Report_Individual+Pages+-2.pdf https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6039d612b17d055cac140...

NoOneNew 6y ago
> like a case manager shoving them into temporary jobs for the audit, it's being picky I should have been more clear. Yes, this is exactly what I'm afraid of. 12% of the participants got a new full-time job. Sure, the others who already had full time jobs could have moved up in rank or got a raise, didn't notice that mentioned in the article though. I'd figure that would be a highlight topic. Anyways, only 12% feels like it was that last ditch effort of temp work to make the program look better. A first step, honest full time job, even low quality, that's good. I can't argue with that. But if it was just a temp job shoved on them for the reporting factor... why was the program needed then? Just force people into temp agencies if that's how you're going to pump up your numbers (which I'm not advocating for). >This is a huge problem, if it's unconditional (is it unconditional?) then way more than 1% should be spent on these. Don't get me wrong. I drink and smoke. I don't care if these folks do as well. God knows when I'm stressed the hell out, a good black out drinking session, next morning death like hangover can be a really good mental reset. I have a problem with reporting, "Oh look how great our program worked, people didn't buy booze or cigs." It's such a weird thing to point out a borderline meaningless topic, that I feel like they're hiding something there. Even if I gave a shit they were buying vices, don't piss in my pocket and tell me it's raining. They used an outside source of money to do so just to make sure the case managers don't get pissed off with them or we're talking about cooked books. Thanks for the links. Even though I'm a negative nancy about this, I'm interested in the results. My thing is, I just want the excel files. I hate well designed reports. I've gone through enough gov and private sector proposals and reports filled with happy faces and magical number results, I want to live in a cave and renounce my citizenship with the human race. Hungry wolves don't bullshit you before draining you of your blood.