5 ms·

Yeah, just a small fraction of countries, like the United States and the European Union. I'm sure nobody cares about those places.

jakemal 6y ago
Yes, only a billion people in the wealthiest countries in the world who are most likely to own an Apple device.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  You don't think that more people use Apple iCloud in Japan or India (total population 1.5 billion) than in Liechtenstein (total population approximately 0)?
  - umeshunni 6y ago
    Liechtenstein is a part of the EU and is subject to the same regulations as the rest of the EU. Launching a product in Japan or India require an entirely new set of legal and regulatory work.
    - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
      > Liechtenstein is a part of the EU No it isn't, which is why Apple specifically calls it out when they also have an entry for "the European Union". Economic Area, yes, Union, no. And Switzerland is part of neither and has their own data regulation separate from the GDPR.
      - robotresearcher 6y ago
        There is a single trade framework that contains them all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market
BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
Can you think of any reasons why it would be limited to just those countries? Note that I'm _not_ asking why those countries are nifty. I'm asking what you think Apple gains by limiting it to just those countries in the first place or would lose by not limiting it to just those countries. The feature technology would be the same regardless of where you are, so saying "only available to users in X" seems like an arbitrary restriction. And there are surely orders of magnitude more Apple iCloud users in Japan or India than in Liechtenstein.
- Denvercoder9 6y ago
  Easy migration to a competitor could hurt their customer retention. Why offer it at all then? At least in Europe the GDPR requires direct transfer of your data to a competitor where technically possible.
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    The GDPR (or some similar requirement) only appears to apply to a subset of the chosen countries.
    - flipbrad 6y ago
      Note that the GDPR applies to businesses established in Europe, effectively regardless of the location or nationality of users. For instance, the UK authority recognised a US resident's right to invoke GDPR, during the Cambridge Analytica scandal.
      - punnerud 6y ago
        It also apply to every data owned by a citizen living in EU (EU != Europe), regardless of the country the company is located.
- jonas21 6y ago
  If I had to guess, I'd say that Apple and Google probably have a contract that covers how this transfer takes place, and it takes some amount of effort from their legal teams to ensure that it's a valid contract that complies with the laws of each jurisdiction. As a result, they started with the highest-value jurisdictions like the US and EU first. Regarding Liechtenstein, it is (along with Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland) part of the European Single Market [1] via trade agreements with the EU, so it's possible that it was trivial to adapt whatever contract they were using in the EU to cover them as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that all 4 are on the list -- but again, this is just a guess. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market
user-the-name 6y ago
That is, in fact, a small fraction of the world population.
grishka 6y ago
Is there a good reason for the code implementing this to know anything at all about the fact that the world is divided into countries? I don't think there is.
- vineyardmike 6y ago
  Yet every code implementation exists in some country bound by laws.
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    So we can't accept a premise that these are countries that mandate such transfers, because not all of them do. And we can't accept a premise that these are countries that all have the same laws, because not all of them do. And we can't accept a premise that these are the countries whose laws make doing this easy, because many other countries place no obstacles whatsoever. So what other law thing should we be thinking of?

jakemal 6y ago

Yes, only a billion people in the wealthiest countries in the world who are most likely to own an Apple device.

BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
You don't think that more people use Apple iCloud in Japan or India (total population 1.5 billion) than in Liechtenstein (total population approximately 0)?
- umeshunni 6y ago
  Liechtenstein is a part of the EU and is subject to the same regulations as the rest of the EU. Launching a product in Japan or India require an entirely new set of legal and regulatory work.
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    > Liechtenstein is a part of the EU No it isn't, which is why Apple specifically calls it out when they also have an entry for "the European Union". Economic Area, yes, Union, no. And Switzerland is part of neither and has their own data regulation separate from the GDPR.
    - robotresearcher 6y ago
      There is a single trade framework that contains them all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market

BugsJustFindMe 6y ago

Can you think of any reasons why it would be limited to just those countries? Note that I'm _not_ asking why those countries are nifty. I'm asking what you think Apple gains by limiting it to just those countries in the first place or would lose by not limiting it to just those countries. The feature technology would be the same regardless of where you are, so saying "only available to users in X" seems like an arbitrary restriction. And there are surely orders of magnitude more Apple iCloud users in Japan or India than in Liechtenstein.

Denvercoder9 6y ago
Easy migration to a competitor could hurt their customer retention. Why offer it at all then? At least in Europe the GDPR requires direct transfer of your data to a competitor where technically possible.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  The GDPR (or some similar requirement) only appears to apply to a subset of the chosen countries.
  - flipbrad 6y ago
    Note that the GDPR applies to businesses established in Europe, effectively regardless of the location or nationality of users. For instance, the UK authority recognised a US resident's right to invoke GDPR, during the Cambridge Analytica scandal.
    - punnerud 6y ago
      It also apply to every data owned by a citizen living in EU (EU != Europe), regardless of the country the company is located.
jonas21 6y ago
If I had to guess, I'd say that Apple and Google probably have a contract that covers how this transfer takes place, and it takes some amount of effort from their legal teams to ensure that it's a valid contract that complies with the laws of each jurisdiction. As a result, they started with the highest-value jurisdictions like the US and EU first. Regarding Liechtenstein, it is (along with Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland) part of the European Single Market [1] via trade agreements with the EU, so it's possible that it was trivial to adapt whatever contract they were using in the EU to cover them as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that all 4 are on the list -- but again, this is just a guess. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market

user-the-name 6y ago

That is, in fact, a small fraction of the world population.

grishka 6y ago

Is there a good reason for the code implementing this to know anything at all about the fact that the world is divided into countries? I don't think there is.

vineyardmike 6y ago
Yet every code implementation exists in some country bound by laws.
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  So we can't accept a premise that these are countries that mandate such transfers, because not all of them do. And we can't accept a premise that these are countries that all have the same laws, because not all of them do. And we can't accept a premise that these are the countries whose laws make doing this easy, because many other countries place no obstacles whatsoever. So what other law thing should we be thinking of?