8 ms·

Repl.it didn't have “cancel” button for subscriptions

111 points by jrd79 6y ago

I just signed up for (and later cancelled) the "Hacker" plan on Repl.it. When I was ready to cancel, I went to the "My Account" page. On that page, there was a "Billing" section, but it didn't list any record of my subscription. And there was no button on the page for cancelling my subscription. (I was logged in on the subscribed account and had access to my "private" REPLs, which is what the subscription lets you do.) I emailed support and they cancelled it for me, and said: "We are working on cancelling subscriptions being an automated process the user can do on their own." Support didn't respond to my question as to why my subscription was not listed in the "Billing" section, but it was presumably for the same reason that there was no "Cancel" button. According to Crunchbase.com, Repl.it has raised $24.6M. That they didn't have a self-serve cancel functionality (and they had a deceptive "Billing" section that omits actual subscriptions) on their Account page deserves community criticism. Please help spread the word so that they do better. [EDIT]: Someone, seemingly from repl.it writes: "Hey there, we upgraded our stripe library version and missed a part in our code the relied on the old behavior. That resulted in our billing info not rendering for about a day. Sorry about that! A deceptive "Billing" section is definitely not our intention." Someone confirmed that they have indeed fixed this. The purpose was to get them to fix the issue (since support just gave me the run around). They appear to have done so, so this issue is closed for me.

qntty 6y ago
Has someone made a site yet where you can look up how easy it is to cancel a subscription before subscribing? Maybe there could be an extension that warns you before you sign up for a service without the ability to easily cancel online.
- nix0n 6y ago
  The closest service I know of is privacy.com's limited use credit cards, which let you cancel a service by cancelling whatever card they have.
  - zackkitzmiller 6y ago
    This is becoming more and more common from issuers. BoA, Chase, and even Venmo Credit have this or similar functionality.
    - ericra 6y ago
      Unfortunately, Bank of America discontinued their "ShopSafe" virtual card service. It was a great resource, and I definitely miss it. I suspect that major banks/credit card companies don't like this service because it brings in no revenue (at least directly), takes resources to maintain, and arguably encourages some of their customers to engage in fraudulent-adjacent behaviors using virtual card numbers. I've avoided services like privacy.com because I am weary of giving a third-party access to my credit card for this purpose, so I do wish more banks/credit cards would offer this service directly.
    - tzs 6y ago
      Capital One, also. They also have a browser extension that lets you generate new virtual card numbers when on a site's checkout page (or reuse one you previously made for that site). It is quite convenient. Their extension, "Eno", is available for both Chrome and Firefox.
      - lukevp 6y ago
        FYI, the Costco capital one does not support this.
  - ryanSrich 6y ago
    The last time I mentioned this on HN everyone was saying how this isn’t legal technically. If you cancel a service simply by not paying (in this case archiving the credit card number) that doesn’t mean you aren’t still liable for the charges. Having said that. If I can’t find a way to cancel on someone’s site, I will just rotate my card number and be done with it. I’ve never been held liable for those charges in those cases, so I’m not sure what the real answer is here.
vinger 6y ago
There was a recent story about repl hiring process where they preferred inexperienced developers. Not surprised key things were missed.
- whatch 6y ago
  There are chances it is "not a priority" intentionally
- hitekker 6y ago
  Do you have a link handy?
  - vinger 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143 In the comments.
- Humdeee 6y ago
  > missed Uh, "deliberately omitted" maybe?
- masfrost 6y ago
  Link?
  - vinger 6y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143
fortran77 6y ago
Are you in California? If so, sue them. Here's the law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB313 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...
- CharlesW 6y ago
  This law doesn't require companies to provide a self-service mechanism to cancel that I can see. Note that the poster "emailed support and they cancelled it for me", presumably without fuss. (b) A business that makes automatic renewal or continuous service offers shall provide a toll-free telephone number, ELECTRONIC MAIL ADDRESS, a postal address if the seller directly bills the consumer, or another cost-effective, timely, and easy-to-use mechanism for cancellation that shall be described in the acknowledgment specified in paragraph (3) of subdivision (a).
  - fortran77 6y ago
    Read it carefully! It clearly says: (c) In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online, which may include a termination email formatted and provided by the business that a consumer can send to the business without additional information.
WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
Isn't this something that major card networks can ban and shitlist you for? They have pretty strict rules about such things, given the "trick into subscription" scams and all. An elevated number of chargebacks could do it, for example. I mean, what the hell, even products that haven't seen such a sum of money on their accounts ever somehow manage to have a self-serve cancel functionality.
- valleyjo 6y ago
  Yea I was going to say, call your credit card and do a chargeback. Pretty easy case to make.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
luplex 6y ago
Maybe there should be a law stating that cancelling a subscription needs to be as easy as sending a single email and then confirm for critical things.
- statstutor 6y ago
  There are such laws, for example in California: https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cancel-subscriptions-online-california-law-says/ https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cance... (I think also in the EU)
myth_drannon 6y ago
Is it not done on purpose as a growth hack, so you have to contact them and they can have a report? I had a subscription to digital version of "The Globe & Mail", largest Canadian newspaper. I had to call them to cancel it because you can only subscribe online not cancel.
ericra 6y ago
I hope someone from the company will see this and respond. I found the free version of their service to be compelling and have considered a paid subscription. Making cancellation difficult is an immediate red flag for me, though, and I would never pay to subscribe while this is the case.
astuyvenberg 6y ago
That is unfortunate, the "call to cancel" dark pattern is so annoying. I hope they do better.
- Semaphor 6y ago
  Also illegal in quite a few jurisdictions if you signed up without calling.
- ModernMech 6y ago
  "Call to cancel" is at least preferred to my old gym's method of canceling, which was to send a handwritten notarized letter via certified carrier pigeon through a time portal to the past to warn myself to not sign up in the first place.
johnwheeler 6y ago
...
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  You never considered it unetheical despite knowing you're taking advantage and milking customers? Do you now consider it unethical?
- binaryblitz 6y ago
  >I never considered it unethical I'd say a vast majority of people (as well as all CC companies) will vehemently disagree with you.
- ctvo 6y ago
  > I run a subscription site and just recently added a cancel button. I used to make customers file a support ticket. The previous thinking was that if you put up a barrier to cancelling there’s a chance the user will defer it and give you another month or two of revenue. There are a lot of sites that do that (the New York Times, and the Economist), and I never considered it unethical so much as shrewd? Anyway, I decided to add a cancel button, and the only thing I’ve seen drop off is the number of support requests I receive, which is nice. There’s been no difference in the cancel rate at all. It's shrewd to waste your customer's time and hope they forget? Wouldn't this energy be better spent making the product better, this way they don't even consider cancelling? You mentioned two companies that were for a time dealing with the transition from print to digital and the decay of advertising revenue. They were holding on in anyway possible. I wouldn't use them as a model for how to run your own subscription base business.
- Karunamon 6y ago
  Speaking as a customer, when I take over the world it will be grounds for summary execution if I have to talk to someone to cancel what I signed up for with a couple of button clicks. The NYT is a very, very legacy outfit and it's probably not a good idea to take cues from them.
- romanovcode 6y ago
  Aren't you shooting yourself in the foot by this logic? If the ticket takes so long to reply and next billing cycle ensures I am sure as hell gonna chargeback the extra transaction.
junke 6y ago
Wow, cancel culture in action
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
davidrusu 6y ago
These companies should realize they are playing an iterated prisoners dilemma game with their customers. Just because your services aren't right for me today, doesn't mean I won't come back in the future and pay for your services again now that I know what you do. But I doubt I'd come back if my last experience with a company has been a bad cancellation procedure.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  > Just because your services aren't right for me today, doesn't mean I won't come back in the future and pay for your services again I suspect that it is quite rare though for someone to actually come back.
  - decebalus1 6y ago
    With the risk of generalizing, this is what I do with some streaming services. I subscribe then cancel after 2-3 months after I've finished watching what I was interested in. I do this with HBO, Showtime, Hulu, Netflix, etc.. I do the same with Leetcode, cancelling my subscription after I'm done prepping then resurrecting it if needed.
  - ModernMech 6y ago
    What about word-of-mouth recommendations? If a service doesn't work for me and I cancel, I may still recommend it to someone else. Not so much if I know they're going to hate me for it if they try to cancel.
  - davidrusu 6y ago
    Varies by business, for sure. I'd say the chance is much higher for B2B businesses. Say my Shopify store fails so I cancel my subscription. But I'll likely come back and try my luck again with Shopify on my next idea since I've learned the platform.
  - dumbfounder 6y ago
    Wrong attitude, and wrong. If I am trying out a few things that don't pan out, I may want to cancel. Then I may want to come back in a few months. Also, this space is moving quickly, so if they aren't improving the product quickly then they will die quickly, so I am sure the people using these tools are trying things out every now and then. Also, you are tainting your word of mouth. Just because I cancel doesn't mean I can't recommend it to someone else who may have different needs. But if it's a pain to cancel I won't be doing that.
raiyu 6y ago
Let’s not make this overly complicated, if it was important enough for them to charge you they should give you a way to cancel the only reason any company doesn’t is because they are f*ing customers.
kevinmchugh 6y ago
It is my understanding that Illinois and California both require that any subscription you can create online be cancellable online as well. People creating subscription services should be familiar with the relevant laws.
- adamtulinius 6y ago
  All of the EU as well.
- fortran77 6y ago
  Yes. The relevant part of the CA law: c) In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online, which may include a termination email formatted and provided by the business that a consumer can send to the business without additional information.
moudy 6y ago
Hey there, we upgraded our stripe library version and missed a part in our code the relied on the old behavior. That resulted in our billing info not rendering for about a day. Sorry about that! A deceptive "Billing" section is definitely not our intention.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ericra 6y ago
  Just to clarify: Are you saying that you have and will always have the ability for customers to cancel their subscriptions online without contacting customer service? And the only reason OP was not able to do so was because of a temporary technical issue lasting about a day? I just want to be sure that is clear.
  - moudy 6y ago
    Yup! We've always had it have no plans on changing that.
    - ericra 6y ago
      Excellent, thank you.
    - jrd79 6y ago
      I am the original poster. The purpose of the post was to get the issue fixed (since support gave me the run around). Now that it has been fixed (and confirmed), I have updated the post to reflect that and have hidden it (as it is no longer relevant).
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        If you are referring to the "hide" link that an ordinary HN user sees (I have no idea what the non-ordinary HN is like for mods et al), I believe that just hides it for you, not everyone else.
jakub_g 6y ago
This is bad, but FYI, the solution is to find a bank which offers virtual credit cards (ideally, virtual disposable credit cards) and use virtual CC for new subs. You use virtual CC, and if it's too painful to unsub, you cancel the CC. They will call you themselves when they notice the $ is not there. And then you can tell them what you think about 'em.
sixhobbits 6y ago
I have a Hacker subscription to Repl.it and there's a really large red "Cancel Subscription" button in the billing section. https://cln.sh/wVN7n2+ https://cln.sh/wVN7n2+
merwanedr 6y ago
I don't understand how this post made it to top 10. Ironically, it even mentions that the company just raised their series A. I have a lot of respect for repl.it as a company and amjad/haya as founders. Surely there's a lot of jealousy and envy in the air.
pjc50 6y ago
https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesse... The right to information on how to cancel is in UK law.
dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
That's why we should use only prepaid cards.

111 points by jrd79 6y ago

qntty 6y ago

Has someone made a site yet where you can look up how easy it is to cancel a subscription before subscribing? Maybe there could be an extension that warns you before you sign up for a service without the ability to easily cancel online.

nix0n 6y ago
The closest service I know of is privacy.com's limited use credit cards, which let you cancel a service by cancelling whatever card they have.
- zackkitzmiller 6y ago
  This is becoming more and more common from issuers. BoA, Chase, and even Venmo Credit have this or similar functionality.
  - ericra 6y ago
    Unfortunately, Bank of America discontinued their "ShopSafe" virtual card service. It was a great resource, and I definitely miss it. I suspect that major banks/credit card companies don't like this service because it brings in no revenue (at least directly), takes resources to maintain, and arguably encourages some of their customers to engage in fraudulent-adjacent behaviors using virtual card numbers. I've avoided services like privacy.com because I am weary of giving a third-party access to my credit card for this purpose, so I do wish more banks/credit cards would offer this service directly.
  - tzs 6y ago
    Capital One, also. They also have a browser extension that lets you generate new virtual card numbers when on a site's checkout page (or reuse one you previously made for that site). It is quite convenient. Their extension, "Eno", is available for both Chrome and Firefox.
    - lukevp 6y ago
      FYI, the Costco capital one does not support this.
- ryanSrich 6y ago
  The last time I mentioned this on HN everyone was saying how this isn’t legal technically. If you cancel a service simply by not paying (in this case archiving the credit card number) that doesn’t mean you aren’t still liable for the charges. Having said that. If I can’t find a way to cancel on someone’s site, I will just rotate my card number and be done with it. I’ve never been held liable for those charges in those cases, so I’m not sure what the real answer is here.

vinger 6y ago

There was a recent story about repl hiring process where they preferred inexperienced developers. Not surprised key things were missed.

whatch 6y ago
There are chances it is "not a priority" intentionally
hitekker 6y ago
Do you have a link handy?
- vinger 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143 In the comments.
Humdeee 6y ago
> missed Uh, "deliberately omitted" maybe?
masfrost 6y ago
Link?
- vinger 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26251143

fortran77 6y ago

Are you in California? If so, sue them. Here's the law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB313 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

CharlesW 6y ago
This law doesn't require companies to provide a self-service mechanism to cancel that I can see. Note that the poster "emailed support and they cancelled it for me", presumably without fuss. (b) A business that makes automatic renewal or continuous service offers shall provide a toll-free telephone number, ELECTRONIC MAIL ADDRESS, a postal address if the seller directly bills the consumer, or another cost-effective, timely, and easy-to-use mechanism for cancellation that shall be described in the acknowledgment specified in paragraph (3) of subdivision (a).
- fortran77 6y ago
  Read it carefully! It clearly says: (c) In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online, which may include a termination email formatted and provided by the business that a consumer can send to the business without additional information.

WesolyKubeczek 6y ago

Isn't this something that major card networks can ban and shitlist you for? They have pretty strict rules about such things, given the "trick into subscription" scams and all. An elevated number of chargebacks could do it, for example. I mean, what the hell, even products that haven't seen such a sum of money on their accounts ever somehow manage to have a self-serve cancel functionality.

valleyjo 6y ago
Yea I was going to say, call your credit card and do a chargeback. Pretty easy case to make.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

luplex 6y ago

Maybe there should be a law stating that cancelling a subscription needs to be as easy as sending a single email and then confirm for critical things.

statstutor 6y ago
There are such laws, for example in California: https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cancel-subscriptions-online-california-law-says/ https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cance... (I think also in the EU)

myth_drannon 6y ago

Is it not done on purpose as a growth hack, so you have to contact them and they can have a report? I had a subscription to digital version of "The Globe & Mail", largest Canadian newspaper. I had to call them to cancel it because you can only subscribe online not cancel.

ericra 6y ago

I hope someone from the company will see this and respond. I found the free version of their service to be compelling and have considered a paid subscription. Making cancellation difficult is an immediate red flag for me, though, and I would never pay to subscribe while this is the case.

astuyvenberg 6y ago

That is unfortunate, the "call to cancel" dark pattern is so annoying. I hope they do better.

Semaphor 6y ago
Also illegal in quite a few jurisdictions if you signed up without calling.
ModernMech 6y ago
"Call to cancel" is at least preferred to my old gym's method of canceling, which was to send a handwritten notarized letter via certified carrier pigeon through a time portal to the past to warn myself to not sign up in the first place.

johnwheeler 6y ago

...

madeofpalk 6y ago
You never considered it unetheical despite knowing you're taking advantage and milking customers? Do you now consider it unethical?
binaryblitz 6y ago
>I never considered it unethical I'd say a vast majority of people (as well as all CC companies) will vehemently disagree with you.
ctvo 6y ago
> I run a subscription site and just recently added a cancel button. I used to make customers file a support ticket. The previous thinking was that if you put up a barrier to cancelling there’s a chance the user will defer it and give you another month or two of revenue. There are a lot of sites that do that (the New York Times, and the Economist), and I never considered it unethical so much as shrewd? Anyway, I decided to add a cancel button, and the only thing I’ve seen drop off is the number of support requests I receive, which is nice. There’s been no difference in the cancel rate at all. It's shrewd to waste your customer's time and hope they forget? Wouldn't this energy be better spent making the product better, this way they don't even consider cancelling? You mentioned two companies that were for a time dealing with the transition from print to digital and the decay of advertising revenue. They were holding on in anyway possible. I wouldn't use them as a model for how to run your own subscription base business.
Karunamon 6y ago
Speaking as a customer, when I take over the world it will be grounds for summary execution if I have to talk to someone to cancel what I signed up for with a couple of button clicks. The NYT is a very, very legacy outfit and it's probably not a good idea to take cues from them.
romanovcode 6y ago
Aren't you shooting yourself in the foot by this logic? If the ticket takes so long to reply and next billing cycle ensures I am sure as hell gonna chargeback the extra transaction.

junke 6y ago

Wow, cancel culture in action

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

davidrusu 6y ago

These companies should realize they are playing an iterated prisoners dilemma game with their customers. Just because your services aren't right for me today, doesn't mean I won't come back in the future and pay for your services again now that I know what you do. But I doubt I'd come back if my last experience with a company has been a bad cancellation procedure.

MattGaiser 6y ago
> Just because your services aren't right for me today, doesn't mean I won't come back in the future and pay for your services again I suspect that it is quite rare though for someone to actually come back.
- decebalus1 6y ago
  With the risk of generalizing, this is what I do with some streaming services. I subscribe then cancel after 2-3 months after I've finished watching what I was interested in. I do this with HBO, Showtime, Hulu, Netflix, etc.. I do the same with Leetcode, cancelling my subscription after I'm done prepping then resurrecting it if needed.
- ModernMech 6y ago
  What about word-of-mouth recommendations? If a service doesn't work for me and I cancel, I may still recommend it to someone else. Not so much if I know they're going to hate me for it if they try to cancel.
- davidrusu 6y ago
  Varies by business, for sure. I'd say the chance is much higher for B2B businesses. Say my Shopify store fails so I cancel my subscription. But I'll likely come back and try my luck again with Shopify on my next idea since I've learned the platform.
- dumbfounder 6y ago
  Wrong attitude, and wrong. If I am trying out a few things that don't pan out, I may want to cancel. Then I may want to come back in a few months. Also, this space is moving quickly, so if they aren't improving the product quickly then they will die quickly, so I am sure the people using these tools are trying things out every now and then. Also, you are tainting your word of mouth. Just because I cancel doesn't mean I can't recommend it to someone else who may have different needs. But if it's a pain to cancel I won't be doing that.

raiyu 6y ago

Let’s not make this overly complicated, if it was important enough for them to charge you they should give you a way to cancel the only reason any company doesn’t is because they are f*ing customers.

kevinmchugh 6y ago

It is my understanding that Illinois and California both require that any subscription you can create online be cancellable online as well. People creating subscription services should be familiar with the relevant laws.

adamtulinius 6y ago
All of the EU as well.
fortran77 6y ago
Yes. The relevant part of the CA law: c) In addition to the requirements of subdivision (b), a consumer who accepts an automatic renewal or continuous service offer online shall be allowed to terminate the automatic renewal or continuous service exclusively online, which may include a termination email formatted and provided by the business that a consumer can send to the business without additional information.

moudy 6y ago

Hey there, we upgraded our stripe library version and missed a part in our code the relied on the old behavior. That resulted in our billing info not rendering for about a day. Sorry about that! A deceptive "Billing" section is definitely not our intention.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ericra 6y ago
Just to clarify: Are you saying that you have and will always have the ability for customers to cancel their subscriptions online without contacting customer service? And the only reason OP was not able to do so was because of a temporary technical issue lasting about a day? I just want to be sure that is clear.
- moudy 6y ago
  Yup! We've always had it have no plans on changing that.
  - ericra 6y ago
    Excellent, thank you.
  - jrd79 6y ago
    I am the original poster. The purpose of the post was to get the issue fixed (since support gave me the run around). Now that it has been fixed (and confirmed), I have updated the post to reflect that and have hidden it (as it is no longer relevant).
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      If you are referring to the "hide" link that an ordinary HN user sees (I have no idea what the non-ordinary HN is like for mods et al), I believe that just hides it for you, not everyone else.

jakub_g 6y ago

This is bad, but FYI, the solution is to find a bank which offers virtual credit cards (ideally, virtual disposable credit cards) and use virtual CC for new subs. You use virtual CC, and if it's too painful to unsub, you cancel the CC. They will call you themselves when they notice the $ is not there. And then you can tell them what you think about 'em.

sixhobbits 6y ago

I have a Hacker subscription to Repl.it and there's a really large red "Cancel Subscription" button in the billing section. https://cln.sh/wVN7n2+ https://cln.sh/wVN7n2+

merwanedr 6y ago

I don't understand how this post made it to top 10. Ironically, it even mentions that the company just raised their series A. I have a lot of respect for repl.it as a company and amjad/haya as founders. Surely there's a lot of jealousy and envy in the air.

pjc50 6y ago

https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesse... The right to information on how to cancel is in UK law.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago

That's why we should use only prepaid cards.