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> Most of this electricity comes from the cheapest source of power, which is hydro. This has become almost a religious belief amongst cryptocurrency acolytes,

> Most of this electricity comes from the cheapest source of power, which is hydro. This has become almost a religious belief amongst cryptocurrency acolytes, but it's simply not true. -- Edit: please see my comment¹ and piplikoc's comment² below for more detail on this. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342411 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342366

read_if_gay_ 6y ago
If you're going to question the validity of an assertion please provide more than just a counterassertion.
- gitrog 6y ago
  You could say that to GP who just dismissed a published study without actually taking on any of the claims made therein.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    They questioned the methodology specifically. So it's not just an assertion.
    - tekknik 6y ago
      ...of a published study. The only reason people are defending GP now is because the subject is BTC.
      - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        Just because it's a published study does not mean it's infallible. Please see my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342411
        tekknik 6y ago
        Your counter is just as flawed as you have no way to verify any miners are using renewables. Power transmission is a thing (California does it) and if we weren’t using the power to mine BTC it could be used to power other things. Again, people are only arguing for BTC on this site because it’s hacker news, nothing else.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        > Your counter is just as flawed as you have no way to verify any miners are using renewables. Then any "published study" on this topic is automatically going to be flawed as well?
        tekknik 6y ago
        More like since renewables are not commonplace and it costs money to move its easier to believe they are not using renewables.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        You can of course believe whatever seems easy to you, but you do realize that I linked to a published study that says miners are using renewables far more than the US does on average, don't you?
        tekknik 6y ago
        32% of miners use renewables. That’s not even a majority amongst miners.
- tomxor 6y ago
  Onus probandi Otherwise nonsense claims can easily destroy the discussion by DoSing the opposition.
- danpalmer 6y ago
  Is the responsibility not on the person making the assertion to provide evidence?
- Marciplan 6y ago
  Isn’t that exactly what the original comment was doing?
- jorvi 6y ago
  That's not how it works. If I claim the moon is made of cheese and someone says he doesn't believe me, the onus is on me to prove it is, not on them that it isn't.
  - trident5000 6y ago
    The burden is on both people making statements/claims.
- crumbshot 6y ago
  Good point, thanks - I'm using CCAF's 3rd Global Cryptoasset Benchmarking Study as the source for my assertion: https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/faculty-research/centres/alternative-finance/publications/3rd-global-cryptoasset-benchmarking-study https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/faculty-research/centres/alternati... Their research indicates that a minority of mining is done using renewable resources: > The survey findings estimate that on average 39% of proof-of-work mining is powered by renewable energy, primarily hydroelectric energy. It also specifically addresses this popular claim of mining being powered mostly by renewables: > China’s oversupply of hydroelectric energy during the rainy season has often been used as evidence in claims that a vast majority of mining is powered by environment-friendly power sources. While it is true that the Chinese government’s strategy to ensure energy self-sufficiency has led to the development of massive hydropower capacity, the same strategy has driven public investments in the construction of large-scale coal mines. Like hydroelectric power plants, these coal power plants often generate surpluses. It should not come as a surprise then that a significant share of hashers in the region equally report using both hydropower and coal energy to power their operations.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    The article seems to use the country average emissions per kWh for the US and China (it's hard to tell because the first reference is a 404, the other is 400+ pages, the final one is definitely country average numbers). A cursory Google search says the percentage of renewable energy in the US and China is ~11% and ~23% respectively. The disparity between that and an average of 39% for crypto mining specifically does not seem to be factored in.
    - crumbshot 6y ago
      I think you're right, they do note this as a limitation of their study due to insufficient data: > The great unanswered question faced when exploring cryptodamages is that while we can identify select geographic hotspots of production we currently do not know in the aggregate where the electricity used in cryptocurrency mining is physically produced. This is because we, like Krause and Tolaymat, do not know the physical locations of cryptocurrency miners, whether individuals, groups or aggregates in, say, a region or country. There is considerable evidence of concentration of mining operations in particular locations, typically where reliable electricity is cheaply available, though, precise data are lacking. In the US, perhaps the most well-known concentration is the Mid-Columbia Basin area in central and eastern Washington State, where cheap electricity is produced by hydropower along the Columbia River, however, mining in other US locations also occurs. There is also evidence of large mining camps in China. With time and emergent research there may be improved information about the amounts of electricity devoted to mining cryptocurrencies for particular locations or regions, but it is currently not available. It would be interesting to see the results of their analysis if recalculated using the more granular CCAF survey data.
skinkestek 6y ago
Do you deny that hydro is cheap or do you claim that miners choose to use power in more expensive locations?
- Jenk 6y ago
  Miners don't care/get a choice. They plug their machines into the nearest wall socket.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    Maybe in the beginning but today miners make lots of choices about where to build/expand their operations based on energy costs, government policies, energy source and more.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    Maybe not individuals, but large one must think economy.
  - hellohiyesokay 6y ago
    Patently false. I do a lot of contracting work for miners, they specifically tune their operations to the power cost of an area and in variable rate loads will switch off miners during peak costs. $/kWh is a big concern for actual mining operations, maybe not for people with one or two rigs in their basement.
    - Jenk 6y ago
      > I do a lot of contracting work for miners Selection bias. I don't doubt that the miners who are investing god knows how much is necessary to _require a contractor_ will have scaled enough to need to concern themselves with cost of electricity, but the _majority_ of miners are not going to be those people, surely?
      - capableweb 6y ago
        Majority of miners are companies trying to make a profit. Every variable is a consideration, like location, energy source, cost and so on. The small mining operations run by the common person has almost no impact in the scale of the network.
piplikoc 6y ago
There are different articles which claim different things. I think the first article is the best. > The CCAF’s research finds that 76% of ‘hashers’ use renewable energy to power their activities, with hydropower the number one source at 62%. Wind and solar energy meanwhile are used by 17% and 15% respectively. This would appear to be consistent with previous research which estimates that 74% of bitcoins are mined using renewable energy. However, the CCAF’s report specifies that the 76% refers to the share of hashers who use renewable energy at any point. It estimates that only 39% of hashing’s total energy consumption comes from renewables. [1] > Bitcoin, which is mostly mined with electricity from coal.[2] > But most bitcoin mining facilities are located in China, which is still heavily reliant on coal-based power. Though the Chinese province of Sichuan is known to attract miners due to its cheap electricity and rich hydropower resources, the level of power generation capacity fluctuates depending on the season. [3] [1] https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/36672/renewable-energy-not-as-prominent-in-cryptocurrency-mining-as-previously-claimed https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/36672/renewable-energy-... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952#piano-inline3:~:text=Bitcoin%2C%20which%20is%20mostly%20mined%20with%20electricity%20from%20coal https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952#piano-inline3:~.... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/bitcoin-btc-surge-renews-worries-about-its-massive-carbon-footprint.html#SpecialReportArticle-RelatedLinks-1:~:text=But%20most%20bitcoin%20mining%20facilities%20are,capacity%20fluctuates%20depending%20on%20the%20season https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/bitcoin-btc-surge-renews-wor....
tekknik 6y ago
OK, now shutdown the miners and how much of that energy can go to replacing things running off of coal or other non renewable?

read_if_gay_ 6y ago

If you're going to question the validity of an assertion please provide more than just a counterassertion.

gitrog 6y ago
You could say that to GP who just dismissed a published study without actually taking on any of the claims made therein.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  They questioned the methodology specifically. So it's not just an assertion.
  - tekknik 6y ago
    ...of a published study. The only reason people are defending GP now is because the subject is BTC.
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      Just because it's a published study does not mean it's infallible. Please see my reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342411
      - tekknik 6y ago
        Your counter is just as flawed as you have no way to verify any miners are using renewables. Power transmission is a thing (California does it) and if we weren’t using the power to mine BTC it could be used to power other things. Again, people are only arguing for BTC on this site because it’s hacker news, nothing else.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        > Your counter is just as flawed as you have no way to verify any miners are using renewables. Then any "published study" on this topic is automatically going to be flawed as well?
        tekknik 6y ago
        More like since renewables are not commonplace and it costs money to move its easier to believe they are not using renewables.
        read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        You can of course believe whatever seems easy to you, but you do realize that I linked to a published study that says miners are using renewables far more than the US does on average, don't you?
        tekknik 6y ago
        32% of miners use renewables. That’s not even a majority amongst miners.
tomxor 6y ago
Onus probandi Otherwise nonsense claims can easily destroy the discussion by DoSing the opposition.
danpalmer 6y ago
Is the responsibility not on the person making the assertion to provide evidence?
Marciplan 6y ago
Isn’t that exactly what the original comment was doing?
jorvi 6y ago
That's not how it works. If I claim the moon is made of cheese and someone says he doesn't believe me, the onus is on me to prove it is, not on them that it isn't.
- trident5000 6y ago
  The burden is on both people making statements/claims.
crumbshot 6y ago
Good point, thanks - I'm using CCAF's 3rd Global Cryptoasset Benchmarking Study as the source for my assertion: https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/faculty-research/centres/alternative-finance/publications/3rd-global-cryptoasset-benchmarking-study https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/faculty-research/centres/alternati... Their research indicates that a minority of mining is done using renewable resources: > The survey findings estimate that on average 39% of proof-of-work mining is powered by renewable energy, primarily hydroelectric energy. It also specifically addresses this popular claim of mining being powered mostly by renewables: > China’s oversupply of hydroelectric energy during the rainy season has often been used as evidence in claims that a vast majority of mining is powered by environment-friendly power sources. While it is true that the Chinese government’s strategy to ensure energy self-sufficiency has led to the development of massive hydropower capacity, the same strategy has driven public investments in the construction of large-scale coal mines. Like hydroelectric power plants, these coal power plants often generate surpluses. It should not come as a surprise then that a significant share of hashers in the region equally report using both hydropower and coal energy to power their operations.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  The article seems to use the country average emissions per kWh for the US and China (it's hard to tell because the first reference is a 404, the other is 400+ pages, the final one is definitely country average numbers). A cursory Google search says the percentage of renewable energy in the US and China is ~11% and ~23% respectively. The disparity between that and an average of 39% for crypto mining specifically does not seem to be factored in.
  - crumbshot 6y ago
    I think you're right, they do note this as a limitation of their study due to insufficient data: > The great unanswered question faced when exploring cryptodamages is that while we can identify select geographic hotspots of production we currently do not know in the aggregate where the electricity used in cryptocurrency mining is physically produced. This is because we, like Krause and Tolaymat, do not know the physical locations of cryptocurrency miners, whether individuals, groups or aggregates in, say, a region or country. There is considerable evidence of concentration of mining operations in particular locations, typically where reliable electricity is cheaply available, though, precise data are lacking. In the US, perhaps the most well-known concentration is the Mid-Columbia Basin area in central and eastern Washington State, where cheap electricity is produced by hydropower along the Columbia River, however, mining in other US locations also occurs. There is also evidence of large mining camps in China. With time and emergent research there may be improved information about the amounts of electricity devoted to mining cryptocurrencies for particular locations or regions, but it is currently not available. It would be interesting to see the results of their analysis if recalculated using the more granular CCAF survey data.

skinkestek 6y ago

Do you deny that hydro is cheap or do you claim that miners choose to use power in more expensive locations?

Jenk 6y ago
Miners don't care/get a choice. They plug their machines into the nearest wall socket.
- capableweb 6y ago
  Maybe in the beginning but today miners make lots of choices about where to build/expand their operations based on energy costs, government policies, energy source and more.
- skinkestek 6y ago
  Maybe not individuals, but large one must think economy.
- hellohiyesokay 6y ago
  Patently false. I do a lot of contracting work for miners, they specifically tune their operations to the power cost of an area and in variable rate loads will switch off miners during peak costs. $/kWh is a big concern for actual mining operations, maybe not for people with one or two rigs in their basement.
  - Jenk 6y ago
    > I do a lot of contracting work for miners Selection bias. I don't doubt that the miners who are investing god knows how much is necessary to _require a contractor_ will have scaled enough to need to concern themselves with cost of electricity, but the _majority_ of miners are not going to be those people, surely?
    - capableweb 6y ago
      Majority of miners are companies trying to make a profit. Every variable is a consideration, like location, energy source, cost and so on. The small mining operations run by the common person has almost no impact in the scale of the network.

piplikoc 6y ago

There are different articles which claim different things. I think the first article is the best. > The CCAF’s research finds that 76% of ‘hashers’ use renewable energy to power their activities, with hydropower the number one source at 62%. Wind and solar energy meanwhile are used by 17% and 15% respectively. This would appear to be consistent with previous research which estimates that 74% of bitcoins are mined using renewable energy. However, the CCAF’s report specifies that the 76% refers to the share of hashers who use renewable energy at any point. It estimates that only 39% of hashing’s total energy consumption comes from renewables. [1] > Bitcoin, which is mostly mined with electricity from coal.[2] > But most bitcoin mining facilities are located in China, which is still heavily reliant on coal-based power. Though the Chinese province of Sichuan is known to attract miners due to its cheap electricity and rich hydropower resources, the level of power generation capacity fluctuates depending on the season. [3] [1] https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/36672/renewable-energy-not-as-prominent-in-cryptocurrency-mining-as-previously-claimed https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/36672/renewable-energy-... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952#piano-inline3:~:text=Bitcoin%2C%20which%20is%20mostly%20mined%20with%20electricity%20from%20coal https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952#piano-inline3:~.... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/bitcoin-btc-surge-renews-worries-about-its-massive-carbon-footprint.html#SpecialReportArticle-RelatedLinks-1:~:text=But%20most%20bitcoin%20mining%20facilities%20are,capacity%20fluctuates%20depending%20on%20the%20season https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/05/bitcoin-btc-surge-renews-wor....

tekknik 6y ago

OK, now shutdown the miners and how much of that energy can go to replacing things running off of coal or other non renewable?