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I'm surprised by this, as I had expected the opposite. Couples are spending a lot of time together being confined to their home without much entertainment, so I

I'm surprised by this, as I had expected the opposite. Couples are spending a lot of time together being confined to their home without much entertainment, so I'd expected that to result in more baby making I guess the stress from the uncertainty of the future and lack of personal space more than countered that Time for me to adjust my assumptions about the world... And probably check my privilege, since I'm massively underestimating the impact the pandemic has had on a large part of the population

that_guy_iain 6y ago
Lots of people stopped dating, bars are closed, etc. I suspect the decrease in drunken sex is probably a large reason for the decrease.
- tzs 6y ago
  That reminds me of something I’ve occasionally wondered about. Just in terms of total population and ignoring all else such as quality of life and economic impacts, is alcohol’s net effect to lower population growth (drunk driving deaths and such) or to raise population growth (drunk sex or other related poor decisions)?
  - coldpie 6y ago
    It doesn't answer the question you posed, but I read a study[1] just yesterday that estimated that the largest factor of young people having less casual sex now than they did ten years ago is a reduction in drinking rates. It was still a minor factor (explains about 25% of the drop, by their estimation), but it seems less alcohol use does correlate with less casual sex. [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2378023121996854 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2378023121996854
- andi999 6y ago
  Actually 300k birth due to drunken sex paints a very dark picture of society.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    It's a social lubricant, even in healthy relationships wanting more children I'd bet many are conceived drunk.
  - _trampeltier 6y ago
    Not all death on the street are because of alcohol.
sandworm101 6y ago
We are no longer purely instinctual animals unable to control our drive towards reproduction. Oppertunity for sex is no longer the controlling factor. Economic realities now dictates when and where we choose to reproduce. But after seeing footage of a highschool prom where, because covid, the kids were only allowed to dance back-to-back, and the health advice about having sex through walls, maybe we are soon going to have more basic issues too.
- Scandiravian 6y ago
  I think that's a good point. I probably should have elaborated a bit, that I wasn't talking purely instictual increase in sexual activity, but also an increase in opportunity to discuss and plan having a baby
- auganov 6y ago
  No idea what it really is but it would make sense for the instinct to be quite the opposite to prevent inbreeding.
beaconstudios 6y ago
> And probably check my privilege That's a weird way of putting it. Not having a good model of others' experience is a universal experience, and something that should be treated as a reason to not make assumptions about others, not a sign that you're privileged.
- Scandiravian 6y ago
  > should be treated as a reason to not make assumptions about others That's what checking ones privilege is. I'm in a position where my financial security, mental well-being, and future prospects would make it a good time for me to start a family if that was what I wanted. Same goes for many of my friends and colleagues, who have in many cases done exactly that I think this article shows that this security does not extend beyond my social circle and that it's a privilege to have such a level of security
  - beaconstudios 6y ago
    But my point is that such a misunderstanding of other people is not a symptom of privilege, its a symptom of being human. You probably don't know how billionaires as a class (and generalising people by a demographic is overgeneralising too) are experiencing covid either, but that isn't a question of privilege. I guess I just don't like the idea of taking a universal human experience and casting it in terms of privilege. You're not blinded by privilege, you're blinded by the lack of generalisability of the human experience (or the lack of omniscience).
    - Scandiravian 6y ago
      I agree that this type of misunderstanding is something every human experiences. Those assumptions will however impact my decisions - who I vote for, what charity I donate to, how I approach other people in life, etc My current situation is very safe and secure, so if I'm not aware that this is a privilege that is only enjoyed by a small subset of the population, my assumptions could lead me to making decisions that negatively impact a disproportionately large part of the population who do not share that privilege I want to leave things better than I found them and to me this a helpful tool for doing that. Other people have different goals and different tools, and that's great as well
sjg007 6y ago
I never thought that. The uncertainty was too great. The economy isn’t doing well either.
a_brawling_boo 6y ago
My wife and I had decided to start trying for a second child around the beginning of 2020, after the outbreak we put those plans hold because we didn't want to have to make repeated trips to the doctor/pediatrician/hospital where all the covid was. What was our employment/financial situation going to look like? In the spring of last year a million people were loosing their jobs a day at one point. Also, friend of ours, a PA in an emergency room, told us witnessed more than one miscarriage due to covid, so no, we are waiting for now.
- Scandiravian 6y ago
  I'm sad to hear that you've been impacted by the pandemic in this way. I hope the vaccine rollout and improvements in control of the spread will reestablish the security you need to provide for a second child
- gwbas1c 6y ago
  My wife and I started talking about having a kid and.. oooops! The maternity visits are fine. The major consequence is that only mom can go. I didn't get to see the ultrasounds this time around. For the maternity ward, just make sure to have an N95 or KN95 mask. Keep it on AT ALL TIMES that you are outside of the room. The hospital we went to had negative pressure machines in case a mother was covid positive. Have your kid. You'll be fine, and when you're old, you won't regret it.
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    Around here the fathers (or any visitors) weren’t even allowed in the delivery room, not to mention being forced to labor with a mask on. An awful experience for the mom. Nevertheless some of us are crazy enough to build our families even during these times because, like you said, it’s about the long plan.
  - bluedino 6y ago
    Dads were allowed the whole process here. But nobody else. It was nice to be free from in-laws, friends, overbearing family members...
saiya-jin 6y ago
Having a kid in western society is massively more difficult/taxing on parents compared to the past, when folks managed to have 10-15 kids and they somehow survived and developed themselves with their siblings (and some died but that's another story). We all know that. Kids are more difficult to manage in age of ubiquitous screens and distractions. Now you have to put your kids to hobbies, take care of their development, folks often live very far from helping family like parents, you need to have massive income surplus if you want your kid to go to higher education (which is true everywhere, in US particularly dialed to 12). Many folks are depressed, even without realizing it. Dating trimmed to bare minimum. Places where people would meet are mostly closed, which means almost 0 chance for random encounters. I could go on for a long time what is worse/properly bad. If I didn't have family on my own, being single during past year would be pretty miserable place to be, probably combated with consumption of copious amounts of weed (not a solution, but I know it would help, even though its just a temporary funny escape).
- leesalminen 6y ago
  > If I didn't have family on my own, being single during past year would be pretty miserable place to be I feel super lucky to have had my first son born right before the covid outbreak in the US. The restrictions have basically forced me to spend every waking second with him (and my wife), and it’s been (mostly) great. I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know my son, and am happy to have been able to support my wife as much as I have. Like you, I couldn’t imagine doing this last year as a single guy- it would’ve been very difficult for me. My brother, for example, who is in his 20s and single, has had a fairly rough time this past year. Most of the mechanisms he used to combat depression are gone.
jasode 6y ago
>Couples are spending a lot of time together [...], so I'd expected that to result in more baby making But a counteracting force is that some couples think 9 months ahead and are afraid of delivering their baby in a COVID-overloaded hospital. COVID makes the opportunities for conception easier but adds to the stress and uncertainties of delivery and postnatal care. (So maybe more sex activity but also more contraception to prevent pregnancies.) It's like that anecdote I heard of the forced shelter-at-home lets people do home-improvement projects but some are afraid of getting on high ladders because if they fall and seriously injure themselves, they are afraid the busy hospital won't be able to see them quickly. COVID changes the risk profile even for people who don't get COVID.
- mbg721 6y ago
  The uncertainty isn't just the COVID overload, but also no doulas/support people, and not knowing if the father is even going to be allowed in the building in case something unusual happens.
  - leesalminen 6y ago
    My wife and I had our first son at the end of 2019, right before the outbreak. We’ve heard from friends that women are delivering wearing a mask now. My wife thinks that she wouldn’t be able to do that and that she would pass out. The level of breathing required to deliver a baby is intense. She has basically threatened the livelihood of my genitalia if I impregnate her during the pandemic. She’s kidding, right? ;)
    - avesi 6y ago
      I delivered wearing a mask last year, it's honestly security theater. A little floppy surgical mask does nothing to contain the breathing of a laboring woman. I was more upset I couldn't kiss my baby when he was first put in my arms.
      - andrew_ 6y ago
        It's a tough juggle between a hospital that won't allow you to give birth maskless, and the level of care you want. We went through a similar tough choice with our daughter born in August last year - we ultimately went with a Catholic-based hospital that we vetted for great care that allowed my wife to give birth without a mask on.
andi999 6y ago
Actually how does one actually do that 'check your privilege'? Is it like a checklist for takeoff:'privilege on? check!'
- shigawire 6y ago
  You think about things from different socioeconomic perspectives. It should be pretty obvious that the pandemic is not a year long stay at home tea party for many people. If you only consider you experience as a wealthy tech worker you might not understand this.
  - mehphp 6y ago
    I completely understand that I happen to have it good because I'm in the tech industry and have been unaffected financially due to the pandemic. However, I'd hardly call myself "wealthy" and it's hardly the year long tea party from my perspective either...
- neogodless 6y ago
  Become aware of it and acknowledge it. Consider ways to improve your perspective around those without the same privilege, and adjust your communication so that it isn't incorporating arcane assumptions.
- tremon 6y ago
  After entering the premises, you make your way to the checkroom, hand over the items you're not supposed to wear inside, and proceed to the venue proper.
- pjc50 6y ago
  A couple of easy wins: - are you describing what you'd do in a situation without considering that other people are in different situations with different constraints, both external and of human fallibility? - have you said "why don't they just" or a similar form of words, without at least coming up with your own potential reasons why that might not be easy? (This is like writing "works on my machine" on a bug report. You know not to do that, so don't write "works on my lifestyle and background" on other people's bug reports about life)
francisofascii 6y ago
It is a reasonable expectation. There have been studies linking high birth rates to blizzards. "blizzard babies" But of course, this was not a blizzard. Increased anxiety and depression can be a libido crusher.
everdrive 6y ago
> there home without much entertainment They were pumped to the brim with entertainment. Passive, internet-based entertainment.
chrisseaton 6y ago
But it's the worst possible time to have a baby. Healthcare is all round degraded, hospitals are risky places to be, new parent services are degraded, socialising with other parents is limited. Why would you risk doing it now rather than waiting if you had a choice? Most people have a choice, so are choosing to wait.
- andrew_ 6y ago
  Sadly, that all really depends on where you live.
jtbayly 6y ago
> since I'm massively underestimating the impact the s/pandemic/lockdown has had on a large part of the population Not having money or a stable income causes people to not have kids.
josephorjoe 6y ago
So, maybe off topic, maybe not. i have a cat. She's a good cat, mostly. We get along pretty well, mostly. Before the pandemic, there were large parts of the day when we didn't see each other. Because we knew we would be separated much of the day, we found time to play around when we were together. I'd throw a toy and she would squawk and chase after it then look at me excitedly until I walked down the hall, picked it up, and threw it back the other way. Then when she was tired it would be time for treats and petting. Good times. Play time was a valued time for both of us, as we knew that soon we would be separated for many hours, possibly days. Time together was special. Now, we have nearly unlimited time together, and when I want to play, kitty is tired or hungry or wants to stare out the window at the pretty birds and squirrels and swats at me and tries to bite me if I persist in trying to initiate play time. Meanwhile, when kitty wants to play, I'm often at my desk trying to focus on my work and probably trying to understand why this awful corporate group has cut another ticket about outdated software to our team when I'm on call. So when kitty jumps on the back of my chair, climbs onto my shoulder, and then flops down on my keyboard with a 'come pet me' look, I pick her up and toss kitty on the floor and tell her to leave me alone. There is no play time anymore.
- siltpotato 6y ago
  My cat died recently and I didn't get that experience before then. He always knew when I was ready, somehow.

that_guy_iain 6y ago

Lots of people stopped dating, bars are closed, etc. I suspect the decrease in drunken sex is probably a large reason for the decrease.

tzs 6y ago
That reminds me of something I’ve occasionally wondered about. Just in terms of total population and ignoring all else such as quality of life and economic impacts, is alcohol’s net effect to lower population growth (drunk driving deaths and such) or to raise population growth (drunk sex or other related poor decisions)?
- coldpie 6y ago
  It doesn't answer the question you posed, but I read a study[1] just yesterday that estimated that the largest factor of young people having less casual sex now than they did ten years ago is a reduction in drinking rates. It was still a minor factor (explains about 25% of the drop, by their estimation), but it seems less alcohol use does correlate with less casual sex. [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2378023121996854 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2378023121996854
andi999 6y ago
Actually 300k birth due to drunken sex paints a very dark picture of society.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  It's a social lubricant, even in healthy relationships wanting more children I'd bet many are conceived drunk.
- _trampeltier 6y ago
  Not all death on the street are because of alcohol.

sandworm101 6y ago

We are no longer purely instinctual animals unable to control our drive towards reproduction. Oppertunity for sex is no longer the controlling factor. Economic realities now dictates when and where we choose to reproduce. But after seeing footage of a highschool prom where, because covid, the kids were only allowed to dance back-to-back, and the health advice about having sex through walls, maybe we are soon going to have more basic issues too.

Scandiravian 6y ago
I think that's a good point. I probably should have elaborated a bit, that I wasn't talking purely instictual increase in sexual activity, but also an increase in opportunity to discuss and plan having a baby
auganov 6y ago
No idea what it really is but it would make sense for the instinct to be quite the opposite to prevent inbreeding.

beaconstudios 6y ago

> And probably check my privilege That's a weird way of putting it. Not having a good model of others' experience is a universal experience, and something that should be treated as a reason to not make assumptions about others, not a sign that you're privileged.

Scandiravian 6y ago
> should be treated as a reason to not make assumptions about others That's what checking ones privilege is. I'm in a position where my financial security, mental well-being, and future prospects would make it a good time for me to start a family if that was what I wanted. Same goes for many of my friends and colleagues, who have in many cases done exactly that I think this article shows that this security does not extend beyond my social circle and that it's a privilege to have such a level of security
- beaconstudios 6y ago
  But my point is that such a misunderstanding of other people is not a symptom of privilege, its a symptom of being human. You probably don't know how billionaires as a class (and generalising people by a demographic is overgeneralising too) are experiencing covid either, but that isn't a question of privilege. I guess I just don't like the idea of taking a universal human experience and casting it in terms of privilege. You're not blinded by privilege, you're blinded by the lack of generalisability of the human experience (or the lack of omniscience).
  - Scandiravian 6y ago
    I agree that this type of misunderstanding is something every human experiences. Those assumptions will however impact my decisions - who I vote for, what charity I donate to, how I approach other people in life, etc My current situation is very safe and secure, so if I'm not aware that this is a privilege that is only enjoyed by a small subset of the population, my assumptions could lead me to making decisions that negatively impact a disproportionately large part of the population who do not share that privilege I want to leave things better than I found them and to me this a helpful tool for doing that. Other people have different goals and different tools, and that's great as well

sjg007 6y ago

I never thought that. The uncertainty was too great. The economy isn’t doing well either.

a_brawling_boo 6y ago

My wife and I had decided to start trying for a second child around the beginning of 2020, after the outbreak we put those plans hold because we didn't want to have to make repeated trips to the doctor/pediatrician/hospital where all the covid was. What was our employment/financial situation going to look like? In the spring of last year a million people were loosing their jobs a day at one point. Also, friend of ours, a PA in an emergency room, told us witnessed more than one miscarriage due to covid, so no, we are waiting for now.

Scandiravian 6y ago
I'm sad to hear that you've been impacted by the pandemic in this way. I hope the vaccine rollout and improvements in control of the spread will reestablish the security you need to provide for a second child
gwbas1c 6y ago
My wife and I started talking about having a kid and.. oooops! The maternity visits are fine. The major consequence is that only mom can go. I didn't get to see the ultrasounds this time around. For the maternity ward, just make sure to have an N95 or KN95 mask. Keep it on AT ALL TIMES that you are outside of the room. The hospital we went to had negative pressure machines in case a mother was covid positive. Have your kid. You'll be fine, and when you're old, you won't regret it.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  Around here the fathers (or any visitors) weren’t even allowed in the delivery room, not to mention being forced to labor with a mask on. An awful experience for the mom. Nevertheless some of us are crazy enough to build our families even during these times because, like you said, it’s about the long plan.
- bluedino 6y ago
  Dads were allowed the whole process here. But nobody else. It was nice to be free from in-laws, friends, overbearing family members...

saiya-jin 6y ago

Having a kid in western society is massively more difficult/taxing on parents compared to the past, when folks managed to have 10-15 kids and they somehow survived and developed themselves with their siblings (and some died but that's another story). We all know that. Kids are more difficult to manage in age of ubiquitous screens and distractions. Now you have to put your kids to hobbies, take care of their development, folks often live very far from helping family like parents, you need to have massive income surplus if you want your kid to go to higher education (which is true everywhere, in US particularly dialed to 12). Many folks are depressed, even without realizing it. Dating trimmed to bare minimum. Places where people would meet are mostly closed, which means almost 0 chance for random encounters. I could go on for a long time what is worse/properly bad. If I didn't have family on my own, being single during past year would be pretty miserable place to be, probably combated with consumption of copious amounts of weed (not a solution, but I know it would help, even though its just a temporary funny escape).

leesalminen 6y ago
> If I didn't have family on my own, being single during past year would be pretty miserable place to be I feel super lucky to have had my first son born right before the covid outbreak in the US. The restrictions have basically forced me to spend every waking second with him (and my wife), and it’s been (mostly) great. I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to know my son, and am happy to have been able to support my wife as much as I have. Like you, I couldn’t imagine doing this last year as a single guy- it would’ve been very difficult for me. My brother, for example, who is in his 20s and single, has had a fairly rough time this past year. Most of the mechanisms he used to combat depression are gone.

jasode 6y ago

>Couples are spending a lot of time together [...], so I'd expected that to result in more baby making But a counteracting force is that some couples think 9 months ahead and are afraid of delivering their baby in a COVID-overloaded hospital. COVID makes the opportunities for conception easier but adds to the stress and uncertainties of delivery and postnatal care. (So maybe more sex activity but also more contraception to prevent pregnancies.) It's like that anecdote I heard of the forced shelter-at-home lets people do home-improvement projects but some are afraid of getting on high ladders because if they fall and seriously injure themselves, they are afraid the busy hospital won't be able to see them quickly. COVID changes the risk profile even for people who don't get COVID.

mbg721 6y ago
The uncertainty isn't just the COVID overload, but also no doulas/support people, and not knowing if the father is even going to be allowed in the building in case something unusual happens.
- leesalminen 6y ago
  My wife and I had our first son at the end of 2019, right before the outbreak. We’ve heard from friends that women are delivering wearing a mask now. My wife thinks that she wouldn’t be able to do that and that she would pass out. The level of breathing required to deliver a baby is intense. She has basically threatened the livelihood of my genitalia if I impregnate her during the pandemic. She’s kidding, right? ;)
  - avesi 6y ago
    I delivered wearing a mask last year, it's honestly security theater. A little floppy surgical mask does nothing to contain the breathing of a laboring woman. I was more upset I couldn't kiss my baby when he was first put in my arms.
    - andrew_ 6y ago
      It's a tough juggle between a hospital that won't allow you to give birth maskless, and the level of care you want. We went through a similar tough choice with our daughter born in August last year - we ultimately went with a Catholic-based hospital that we vetted for great care that allowed my wife to give birth without a mask on.

andi999 6y ago

Actually how does one actually do that 'check your privilege'? Is it like a checklist for takeoff:'privilege on? check!'

shigawire 6y ago
You think about things from different socioeconomic perspectives. It should be pretty obvious that the pandemic is not a year long stay at home tea party for many people. If you only consider you experience as a wealthy tech worker you might not understand this.
- mehphp 6y ago
  I completely understand that I happen to have it good because I'm in the tech industry and have been unaffected financially due to the pandemic. However, I'd hardly call myself "wealthy" and it's hardly the year long tea party from my perspective either...
neogodless 6y ago
Become aware of it and acknowledge it. Consider ways to improve your perspective around those without the same privilege, and adjust your communication so that it isn't incorporating arcane assumptions.
tremon 6y ago
After entering the premises, you make your way to the checkroom, hand over the items you're not supposed to wear inside, and proceed to the venue proper.
pjc50 6y ago
A couple of easy wins: - are you describing what you'd do in a situation without considering that other people are in different situations with different constraints, both external and of human fallibility? - have you said "why don't they just" or a similar form of words, without at least coming up with your own potential reasons why that might not be easy? (This is like writing "works on my machine" on a bug report. You know not to do that, so don't write "works on my lifestyle and background" on other people's bug reports about life)

francisofascii 6y ago

It is a reasonable expectation. There have been studies linking high birth rates to blizzards. "blizzard babies" But of course, this was not a blizzard. Increased anxiety and depression can be a libido crusher.

everdrive 6y ago

> there home without much entertainment They were pumped to the brim with entertainment. Passive, internet-based entertainment.

chrisseaton 6y ago

But it's the worst possible time to have a baby. Healthcare is all round degraded, hospitals are risky places to be, new parent services are degraded, socialising with other parents is limited. Why would you risk doing it now rather than waiting if you had a choice? Most people have a choice, so are choosing to wait.

andrew_ 6y ago
Sadly, that all really depends on where you live.

jtbayly 6y ago

> since I'm massively underestimating the impact the s/pandemic/lockdown has had on a large part of the population Not having money or a stable income causes people to not have kids.

josephorjoe 6y ago

So, maybe off topic, maybe not. i have a cat. She's a good cat, mostly. We get along pretty well, mostly. Before the pandemic, there were large parts of the day when we didn't see each other. Because we knew we would be separated much of the day, we found time to play around when we were together. I'd throw a toy and she would squawk and chase after it then look at me excitedly until I walked down the hall, picked it up, and threw it back the other way. Then when she was tired it would be time for treats and petting. Good times. Play time was a valued time for both of us, as we knew that soon we would be separated for many hours, possibly days. Time together was special. Now, we have nearly unlimited time together, and when I want to play, kitty is tired or hungry or wants to stare out the window at the pretty birds and squirrels and swats at me and tries to bite me if I persist in trying to initiate play time. Meanwhile, when kitty wants to play, I'm often at my desk trying to focus on my work and probably trying to understand why this awful corporate group has cut another ticket about outdated software to our team when I'm on call. So when kitty jumps on the back of my chair, climbs onto my shoulder, and then flops down on my keyboard with a 'come pet me' look, I pick her up and toss kitty on the floor and tell her to leave me alone. There is no play time anymore.

siltpotato 6y ago
My cat died recently and I didn't get that experience before then. He always knew when I was ready, somehow.