3 ms·

> but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using b

> but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). > No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Not all manufacturers are exactly playing the same game, but all manufacturers you will find in a consumer-oriented shop are in it, and there's no public policy to build incentives out of this unhealthy system. > consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. There is no reliable information for consumers to know about such long-term prices so they just fall into the trap and keep on buying new hardware that'll break down soon. The repairability index is a small step in the good direction (though not nearly good enough).

lotsofpulp 6y ago
> There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Source? I have a hard time believing that there exists the ability to sell a longer lasting product at a sufficiently low price, and yet no business is taking advantage of this to steal business from the incumbents. > Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). I don’t know about this. I’ve always bought mid to higher end TVs and they have never died on me. The commercial ones I buy for hotels also come with 5 year warranties, and over 10+ years of LCD/LED TVs I can’t recall a single one that simply died. My electronics seem to be lasting longer and longer, but I also don’t buy the lowest price products. > That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Yes, but that’s the world we live in. As I wrote, the solution to this is increasing taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution and imports from countries with lax environmental and labor regulations. > Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. How are you projecting labor costs over 60 years? In my adult life of 15 years, labor costs for anything remotely skilled have double, and I don’t expect to pay anything less than $100/hour today. And I don’t know anyone who is replacing hardware every 5 years. It just doesn’t jive with my experiences that all these appliances people have are breaking down so often in 5 years. And I do not think that the people buying cheap products today are doing so because they don’t have the information. People buy cheap garbage because they either can’t afford the more expensive, higher quality products, or they are sacrificing durability for some other feature. People buy German or American cars when surely everyone by now knows Toyota and Honda are bulletproof and easy to repair. And that’s a bigger purchase than any household appliance.
- southerntofu 6y ago
  > no business is taking advantage of this to steal business from the incumbents Some are, but on the margins because they are either not part of the mass distribution networks (grande distribution), or don't have enough $$$$ to spend considerable resources on advertising. Facom hardware for instance is very durable. They used to have lifetime warranty, now it's 60 years which is already pretty good. Facom hardware is anywhere from 2 to 5 times the price of discount hardware, as the difference in raw material prices greatly affects tooling. But you don't find Facom in most hardware/DIY stores, and when you do they will not be marketed as "something cheaper is just utter crap that you'll have to buy again and again and again and will cost you a lot more in the long run". For more complex mechanics/electronics, the price difference doesn't have to be so great. Investing a few more cents/euros overall for better components, alongside with better design, will improve durability by years. Infamously, LED lightbulbs could have much greater lifespans with slightly-better electronic parts. > I’ve always bought mid to higher end TVs and they have never died on me. Good for you. That's just not the experience of average consumers nowadays. I don't know where you live, but here in France it's really common to find abandoned flatscreens on the streets just because a single component has died. Samsung in particular was denounced for placing capacitors in their TVs near the heatsinks, which is conscious sabotage as any electronician can tell you that will greatly reduce their lifespan. > the solution to this is increasing taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution and imports from countries with lax environmental and labor regulations. That makes entire sense, but designing a tax system that does not overwhelmingly affect the poorest is hard. That was part of the debate with the carbon/fuel tax in the past decade, that rich people don't care to pay more but poorer folks will certainly loose a lot of buying power with something like this. > How are you projecting labor costs over 60 years? I'm not, i was giving a (very) high estimation of hardware costs, not including labor costs which you can get for free from local associations/hackerspaces (which could also be a public service) or for cheap from an electronics shop if there's one nearby. > People buy cheap garbage because they either can’t afford the more expensive, higher quality products That is correct, but durability is not evaluated and presented to consumers, so they cannot make informed decisions. Many people would be happy to pay twice the price for 10 times durability if they only knew for sure. But many times, putting more money (as a client) in a product doesn't rhyme with better durability, so people are reluctant to invest more. That european law only mandates 2 years warranty for hardware doesn't help. 10 years is slightly less worse. But we really need to aim for 50-100 years if we want to tackle environmental challenges as a society. That, or dismantle the entire industry before it's done polluting everything and we can't even breathe/drink anymore.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

> There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Source? I have a hard time believing that there exists the ability to sell a longer lasting product at a sufficiently low price, and yet no business is taking advantage of this to steal business from the incumbents. > Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). I don’t know about this. I’ve always bought mid to higher end TVs and they have never died on me. The commercial ones I buy for hotels also come with 5 year warranties, and over 10+ years of LCD/LED TVs I can’t recall a single one that simply died. My electronics seem to be lasting longer and longer, but I also don’t buy the lowest price products. > That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Yes, but that’s the world we live in. As I wrote, the solution to this is increasing taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution and imports from countries with lax environmental and labor regulations. > Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. How are you projecting labor costs over 60 years? In my adult life of 15 years, labor costs for anything remotely skilled have double, and I don’t expect to pay anything less than $100/hour today. And I don’t know anyone who is replacing hardware every 5 years. It just doesn’t jive with my experiences that all these appliances people have are breaking down so often in 5 years. And I do not think that the people buying cheap products today are doing so because they don’t have the information. People buy cheap garbage because they either can’t afford the more expensive, higher quality products, or they are sacrificing durability for some other feature. People buy German or American cars when surely everyone by now knows Toyota and Honda are bulletproof and easy to repair. And that’s a bigger purchase than any household appliance.

southerntofu 6y ago
> no business is taking advantage of this to steal business from the incumbents Some are, but on the margins because they are either not part of the mass distribution networks (grande distribution), or don't have enough $$$$ to spend considerable resources on advertising. Facom hardware for instance is very durable. They used to have lifetime warranty, now it's 60 years which is already pretty good. Facom hardware is anywhere from 2 to 5 times the price of discount hardware, as the difference in raw material prices greatly affects tooling. But you don't find Facom in most hardware/DIY stores, and when you do they will not be marketed as "something cheaper is just utter crap that you'll have to buy again and again and again and will cost you a lot more in the long run". For more complex mechanics/electronics, the price difference doesn't have to be so great. Investing a few more cents/euros overall for better components, alongside with better design, will improve durability by years. Infamously, LED lightbulbs could have much greater lifespans with slightly-better electronic parts. > I’ve always bought mid to higher end TVs and they have never died on me. Good for you. That's just not the experience of average consumers nowadays. I don't know where you live, but here in France it's really common to find abandoned flatscreens on the streets just because a single component has died. Samsung in particular was denounced for placing capacitors in their TVs near the heatsinks, which is conscious sabotage as any electronician can tell you that will greatly reduce their lifespan. > the solution to this is increasing taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution and imports from countries with lax environmental and labor regulations. That makes entire sense, but designing a tax system that does not overwhelmingly affect the poorest is hard. That was part of the debate with the carbon/fuel tax in the past decade, that rich people don't care to pay more but poorer folks will certainly loose a lot of buying power with something like this. > How are you projecting labor costs over 60 years? I'm not, i was giving a (very) high estimation of hardware costs, not including labor costs which you can get for free from local associations/hackerspaces (which could also be a public service) or for cheap from an electronics shop if there's one nearby. > People buy cheap garbage because they either can’t afford the more expensive, higher quality products That is correct, but durability is not evaluated and presented to consumers, so they cannot make informed decisions. Many people would be happy to pay twice the price for 10 times durability if they only knew for sure. But many times, putting more money (as a client) in a product doesn't rhyme with better durability, so people are reluctant to invest more. That european law only mandates 2 years warranty for hardware doesn't help. 10 years is slightly less worse. But we really need to aim for 50-100 years if we want to tackle environmental challenges as a society. That, or dismantle the entire industry before it's done polluting everything and we can't even breathe/drink anymore.