2 ms·

That's a very good question, thanks. I have anecdata in the forms of testimonies from elders about durability of hardware (in general), and from my own experie

That's a very good question, thanks. I have anecdata in the forms of testimonies from elders about durability of hardware (in general), and from my own experience when i was younger. For example, i remember buying socks/pants/shoes that would last me years and years ; i don't remember when exactly was the last time i bought one of those and it lasted me more than a year, but that was long ago. Then, there's actual evidence pointing to the industry sabotaging their products on purpose (planned obsolescence). This ranges from historical insider documents to public testimonies. The most obvious user-facing examples are manuals, availability of spare parts, and warranty times. It was not uncommon for products to have lifetime (or 20y) warranty, and to come with a manual. There were an abundance of clothing/electronics shops in every city where you could get spare parts for cheap, and these shops have mostly closed down due to bad economic incentives.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
Is it possible buyers don’t value the ability to use a machine for 20 years at the cost it takes to make a machine that can be warrantied for 20 years? There are multiple manufacturers of washers, surely they would have done the market research to know what will sell. I recently purchased a washer and dryer from Costco for $1,600 with a 4 year warranty. There were no options for a longer warranty at Costco, but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k. I might still choose the 4 year warranty option and gamble on it lasting 10 years and then getting new ones when it breaks. The longest warranty on a consumer washer, Speed Queen, is 5 years I think. Their commercial options are similar (for hotels), I didn’t see any 5+ year options last I checked. And their commercial versions are pretty repairable. I’m guessing the economics just don’t line up where the washers and dryers are so cheap with a few years of warranty that it can’t offset labor costs and other costs of longer warranties. No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer, except that consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at. As for tackling pollution due to excess waste, I think the more efficient, easier, better way to tackle that is to increase taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution. That will cause increases in prices of goods, which will force consumers to value longevity and repairability, which will then cause manufacturers to also value those aspects.
- southerntofu 6y ago
  > but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). > No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Not all manufacturers are exactly playing the same game, but all manufacturers you will find in a consumer-oriented shop are in it, and there's no public policy to build incentives out of this unhealthy system. > consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. There is no reliable information for consumers to know about such long-term prices so they just fall into the trap and keep on buying new hardware that'll break down soon. The repairability index is a small step in the good direction (though not nearly good enough).
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    > There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Source? I have a hard time believing that there exists the ability to sell a longer lasting product at a sufficiently low price, and yet no business is taking advantage of this to steal business from the incumbents. > Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). I don’t know about this. I’ve always bought mid to higher end TVs and they have never died on me. The commercial ones I buy for hotels also come with 5 year warranties, and over 10+ years of LCD/LED TVs I can’t recall a single one that simply died. My electronics seem to be lasting longer and longer, but I also don’t buy the lowest price products. > That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Yes, but that’s the world we live in. As I wrote, the solution to this is increasing taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution and imports from countries with lax environmental and labor regulations. > Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. How are you projecting labor costs over 60 years? In my adult life of 15 years, labor costs for anything remotely skilled have double, and I don’t expect to pay anything less than $100/hour today. And I don’t know anyone who is replacing hardware every 5 years. It just doesn’t jive with my experiences that all these appliances people have are breaking down so often in 5 years. And I do not think that the people buying cheap products today are doing so because they don’t have the information. People buy cheap garbage because they either can’t afford the more expensive, higher quality products, or they are sacrificing durability for some other feature. People buy German or American cars when surely everyone by now knows Toyota and Honda are bulletproof and easy to repair. And that’s a bigger purchase than any household appliance.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

Is it possible buyers don’t value the ability to use a machine for 20 years at the cost it takes to make a machine that can be warrantied for 20 years? There are multiple manufacturers of washers, surely they would have done the market research to know what will sell. I recently purchased a washer and dryer from Costco for $1,600 with a 4 year warranty. There were no options for a longer warranty at Costco, but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k. I might still choose the 4 year warranty option and gamble on it lasting 10 years and then getting new ones when it breaks. The longest warranty on a consumer washer, Speed Queen, is 5 years I think. Their commercial options are similar (for hotels), I didn’t see any 5+ year options last I checked. And their commercial versions are pretty repairable. I’m guessing the economics just don’t line up where the washers and dryers are so cheap with a few years of warranty that it can’t offset labor costs and other costs of longer warranties. No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer, except that consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at. As for tackling pollution due to excess waste, I think the more efficient, easier, better way to tackle that is to increase taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution. That will cause increases in prices of goods, which will force consumers to value longevity and repairability, which will then cause manufacturers to also value those aspects.

southerntofu 6y ago
> but suppose a machine with a 20 year warranty costs $3k There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). > No one is stopping a company from coming in and offering a 20 year warranty washer dryer That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Not all manufacturers are exactly playing the same game, but all manufacturers you will find in a consumer-oriented shop are in it, and there's no public policy to build incentives out of this unhealthy system. > consumers won’t buy it at the price it would have to sell at Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. There is no reliable information for consumers to know about such long-term prices so they just fall into the trap and keep on buying new hardware that'll break down soon. The repairability index is a small step in the good direction (though not nearly good enough).
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  > There is no reason for that. A more solid/reliable machine doesn't have to be more expensive. Using better materials may cost up to 20% more i believe, but will certainly not cost several times the price of the reference (faulty) product. Source? I have a hard time believing that there exists the ability to sell a longer lasting product at a sufficiently low price, and yet no business is taking advantage of this to steal business from the incumbents. > Also it's important to note planned obsolescence is usually not even the result of bad materials, but conscious sabotage. For example, placing capacitors near a source of heat (looking at you TV manufacturers). I don’t know about this. I’ve always bought mid to higher end TVs and they have never died on me. The commercial ones I buy for hotels also come with 5 year warranties, and over 10+ years of LCD/LED TVs I can’t recall a single one that simply died. My electronics seem to be lasting longer and longer, but I also don’t buy the lowest price products. > That's not entirely true. The few that did had to stop because unfair competition (using poor labor/environmental regulations) were driving the prices down. Yes, but that’s the world we live in. As I wrote, the solution to this is increasing taxes on fossil fuels and other sources of pollution and imports from countries with lax environmental and labor regulations. > Many people will if the arguments are exposed in a reasonable manner. Durable products with available spare parts are considerably cheaper in the long run: a washing machine that lasts 60y for 2000$ (plus maybe 200$ of repairs over the years) is more viable than buying a 500$ machine every five years (2200$ vs 6000$). And that's assuming hardware even lasts 5y, which in many cases it does not. How are you projecting labor costs over 60 years? In my adult life of 15 years, labor costs for anything remotely skilled have double, and I don’t expect to pay anything less than $100/hour today. And I don’t know anyone who is replacing hardware every 5 years. It just doesn’t jive with my experiences that all these appliances people have are breaking down so often in 5 years. And I do not think that the people buying cheap products today are doing so because they don’t have the information. People buy cheap garbage because they either can’t afford the more expensive, higher quality products, or they are sacrificing durability for some other feature. People buy German or American cars when surely everyone by now knows Toyota and Honda are bulletproof and easy to repair. And that’s a bigger purchase than any household appliance.