10 ms·

The blockchain is one of the dumbest innovations of the tech industry

65 points by twsted 6y ago

Terretta 6y ago
”The utility of a term of art for any piece of software that includes two of the most common concepts in computer science (hashing, linked data structures) is just bad classification. This includes such a vast category of software to make the term meaningless...” ”For the last 10 years a whole cottage industry has arisen trying answer the question: Is blockchain useful for anything but gambling? After about $30b in sunk investment and a 0% success rate the industry finally has the answer: NO” On the contrary, DLT, or distributed ledger technology, is a new kind of primitive and extraordinarily useful. See https://aws.amazon.com/qldb/ https://aws.amazon.com/qldb/ Consider the contrast in that overview with what’s usually bucketed as blockchain.
eejjjj82 6y ago
Imagine if in 1975, the editor of your local news paper said that solar cells are the worlds least efficient energy source ever invented and they were the technology industry's greatest failure. Or in 1995 you read the same article about websites... now remove all journalistic integrity and quality from those misinformed articles and you have what this post is about. This is an editorial fluff piece with a very poor core argument. I'm very surprised has risen this high on HN, usually the opinion pieces here have far better formulated arguments. e.g. "Ok, so what do we even mean when we say “blockchain”.The answer is really that nobody knows, it’s not a term that has any precise definition and it really depends on who you talk to and the context. (Source: https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033 https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033)" The irony being... the author also never bothers to spell out /which/ blockchain he is ranting against. Again, he get's sidetracked on his own strawman argument of what a blockchain is... "Now some introductions will tell you a blockchain is a data structure from computer science which consists of a linked list of blocks which are iteratively hashed so that subsequent blocks depend on the hashes of previous blocks. (7/)However the utility of a term of art for any piece of software that includes two of the most common concepts in computer science (hashing, linked data structures) is just bad classification. (Source: https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033 https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033)" He entirely misses the point that the novelty of what a blockchain is, isn't a fancy linked list, it's a mechanism for distributed consensus. Where by distributed computing algorithms from Paxos -> RAFT and private implementations of distributed databases like BigTable, Dynamo, Cassandra, and now next generation iterations like Hazelcast, Redis Grid, Spanner, etc... have enabled the greatest leaps in computing scalability of the past 10 years. However these are all privately maintained databases. The "blockchain"... whichever implementation to which you refer, must be defined in its usability as a trusted distributed database. The mechanism of the datastructure to represent it is the least interesting or novel part of the technology. The rest of the author's "points" regarding utility and energy consumption are equally misinformed and poorly formulated. All in all the author just doesn't seem very informed of what blockchain is beyond the sorts of talking head gossip you'd seen on CNBC. His own limited imagination into the possible uses are akin to people from 1995 who couldn't imagine why websites would be so big or that solar panels would ever be efficient enough to generate energy.
- vnxli 6y ago
  Why is HN so anti crypto? Blockchain/distributed databases seem like really cool tech with some valuable real world applications outside of just coins and stonks but I feel like we never get into that here. Or is this just a vocal minority thing?
  - vcavallo 6y ago
    crypto is all wrapped up with other things that the powerful, vocal, hateful slice of the internet like to trash in public (while blindly supporting one another on anything that feels connected).
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Still waiting to see any of these "valuable real world applications". I've seen some proposed vapourware nonsense about voting-on-blockchain or identity-cards-for-refugees-on-blockchain but they didn't make any sense as far as I could tell.
    - tomw1808 6y ago
      Most of these projects are crap, but there are some very legitimate use cases when it comes to binding businesses together. Blockchain solutions make it possible to transact easier than before. One particular use-case that stayed with me for a long time is what DeBeers is doing with the diamond tracing. For long time diamond certificates were faked between Afrika and Antwerp, especially on border checkpoints. This is where blood diamonds were introduced into the supply chain. Participants cannot be trusted and a common ledger (a.k.a Blockchain or DLT) is a solution. With a traditional database you'd have again a "super administrator", which is exactly what you want to avoid. This has, obviously, nothing in common with a public network like Ethereum, but it's still "Blockchain" and I believe it's still a very valuable real-world use-case. https://www.tracr.com/ https://www.tracr.com/ Paul Brody does also a lot of real-world projects with EY.
      - rcxdude 6y ago
s_dev 6y ago
This article is trash -- just look at these assertions: >The overwhelming consensus among programmers and technologists is that blockchain is completely useless technology for anything but speculative digital gambling on tokens. Many Bitcoin skeptics are advocates of blockchain -- so I don't see a consensus here. >Ok, so what do we even mean when we say “blockchain”. The answer is really that nobody knows, it’s not a term that has any precise definition and it really depends on who you talk to and the context. Blockchain is useful and afaik does have a working definition -- it solves a very real problem of how to prevent bitrot in the long term storage of data for example.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  > Blockchain is useful and afaik does have a working definition Speaking of unsupported assertions...
- blockyhead 6y ago
  He really did write "The answer is nobody knows"? Blockchains are not that hard to understand. So he plainly admits he doesn't know what he is talking about?
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    What's hard to understand about a really slow append-only database where you have to set a barrel of crude oil on fire in order to make a commit? (edit: yes yes, 'proof of stake' blah blah)
    - blockyhead 6y ago
      Why bother explaining it to you? I recommend you try to work in other areas.
    - noxer 6y ago
      DLTs (blockchains) solve the double spending problem in a decentral (trustless) way. Thats "the definition" and what separates it from other similar tech like git, a synced databases or a write-only database. PoW/PoS are just rather stupid ways to implement this its not needed at all. Lookup federated byzantine agreement (FBA) for DLT systems without it.
ForHackernews 6y ago
Seriously though https://fishtoaster.com/images/Blockchain.png https://fishtoaster.com/images/Blockchain.png
blockyhead 6y ago
Right alongside with giving computers more than 16K RAM.
tomw1808 6y ago
I am amazed - is that the same category of people who said "the Internet" isn't going anywhere?
- xiphias2 6y ago
  Where is the HN moderation? At this point multiple the articles on the front page are just about hating Bitcoin without any substance. I'd consider canceling my subscription if HN was paid (though there are still many cool articles)
  - tomw1808 6y ago
    Paid in BTC, can't refund.
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      That's strange, I never had problem with getting a refund after paying with BTC. Have you had issue with it?
      - tomw1808 6y ago
        Haven't seen anything from MtGox so far, have you?
        xiphias2 6y ago
        I’m really sorry for you if you kept your money there. I alway keep it in my own wallet. How much did you lose?
        tomw1808 6y ago
        That's alright, it were different times. No Ledger or Trezor at the time, no fancy browser plugins or great wallets. A lot changed. But still, 2021, most Credit Card companies will put an (more than) elevated risk score on transactions when done for crypto sales. I know this first hand, although I can't go into details, if you're a payment provider dealing with crypto companies - even with best-in-class KYC and AML checks - your rejection rate will be significantly higher than usual. What tells us that? Many times Crypto is used to scam people, because there is no SEPA network to get the money back.
wtf_is_up 6y ago
The daily crypto FUD piece. I look forward to these.
noxer 6y ago
In short: "I dont have or see a use for X therefore X must be completely useless to anybody" Also its DLT not blockchain there are DLTs without chains of blocks, without PoW/PoS etc.
eddhead 6y ago
Blockchain is merely going through the GamerGate moment now, that's why you're seeing so many articles all at once trying to bash it. From all angles
IdontRememberIt 6y ago
Central banks want to keep control on money. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-IZZxyb1GI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-IZZxyb1GI) They will crush any entity who will threaten that. Central banks are all working on CBDC (Central bank digital currency). The day they will be ready, I can suppose they will eliminate the threats.
CawCawCaw 6y ago
Since no one has mentioned cert transparency yet: https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.03914 https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.03914

65 points by twsted 6y ago

”The utility of a term of art for any piece of software that includes two of the most common concepts in computer science (hashing, linked data structures) is just bad classification. This includes such a vast category of software to make the term meaningless...” ”For the last 10 years a whole cottage industry has arisen trying answer the question: Is blockchain useful for anything but gambling? After about $30b in sunk investment and a 0% success rate the industry finally has the answer: NO” On the contrary, DLT, or distributed ledger technology, is a new kind of primitive and extraordinarily useful. See https://aws.amazon.com/qldb/ https://aws.amazon.com/qldb/ Consider the contrast in that overview with what’s usually bucketed as blockchain.

eejjjj82 6y ago

Imagine if in 1975, the editor of your local news paper said that solar cells are the worlds least efficient energy source ever invented and they were the technology industry's greatest failure. Or in 1995 you read the same article about websites... now remove all journalistic integrity and quality from those misinformed articles and you have what this post is about. This is an editorial fluff piece with a very poor core argument. I'm very surprised has risen this high on HN, usually the opinion pieces here have far better formulated arguments. e.g. "Ok, so what do we even mean when we say “blockchain”.The answer is really that nobody knows, it’s not a term that has any precise definition and it really depends on who you talk to and the context. (Source: https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033 https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033)" The irony being... the author also never bothers to spell out /which/ blockchain he is ranting against. Again, he get's sidetracked on his own strawman argument of what a blockchain is... "Now some introductions will tell you a blockchain is a data structure from computer science which consists of a linked list of blocks which are iteratively hashed so that subsequent blocks depend on the hashes of previous blocks. (7/)However the utility of a term of art for any piece of software that includes two of the most common concepts in computer science (hashing, linked data structures) is just bad classification. (Source: https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033 https://threader.app/thread/1363418896301228033)" He entirely misses the point that the novelty of what a blockchain is, isn't a fancy linked list, it's a mechanism for distributed consensus. Where by distributed computing algorithms from Paxos -> RAFT and private implementations of distributed databases like BigTable, Dynamo, Cassandra, and now next generation iterations like Hazelcast, Redis Grid, Spanner, etc... have enabled the greatest leaps in computing scalability of the past 10 years. However these are all privately maintained databases. The "blockchain"... whichever implementation to which you refer, must be defined in its usability as a trusted distributed database. The mechanism of the datastructure to represent it is the least interesting or novel part of the technology. The rest of the author's "points" regarding utility and energy consumption are equally misinformed and poorly formulated. All in all the author just doesn't seem very informed of what blockchain is beyond the sorts of talking head gossip you'd seen on CNBC. His own limited imagination into the possible uses are akin to people from 1995 who couldn't imagine why websites would be so big or that solar panels would ever be efficient enough to generate energy.

vnxli 6y ago
Why is HN so anti crypto? Blockchain/distributed databases seem like really cool tech with some valuable real world applications outside of just coins and stonks but I feel like we never get into that here. Or is this just a vocal minority thing?
- vcavallo 6y ago
  crypto is all wrapped up with other things that the powerful, vocal, hateful slice of the internet like to trash in public (while blindly supporting one another on anything that feels connected).
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Still waiting to see any of these "valuable real world applications". I've seen some proposed vapourware nonsense about voting-on-blockchain or identity-cards-for-refugees-on-blockchain but they didn't make any sense as far as I could tell.
  - tomw1808 6y ago
    Most of these projects are crap, but there are some very legitimate use cases when it comes to binding businesses together. Blockchain solutions make it possible to transact easier than before. One particular use-case that stayed with me for a long time is what DeBeers is doing with the diamond tracing. For long time diamond certificates were faked between Afrika and Antwerp, especially on border checkpoints. This is where blood diamonds were introduced into the supply chain. Participants cannot be trusted and a common ledger (a.k.a Blockchain or DLT) is a solution. With a traditional database you'd have again a "super administrator", which is exactly what you want to avoid. This has, obviously, nothing in common with a public network like Ethereum, but it's still "Blockchain" and I believe it's still a very valuable real-world use-case. https://www.tracr.com/ https://www.tracr.com/ Paul Brody does also a lot of real-world projects with EY.
    - rcxdude 6y ago

s_dev 6y ago

This article is trash -- just look at these assertions: >The overwhelming consensus among programmers and technologists is that blockchain is completely useless technology for anything but speculative digital gambling on tokens. Many Bitcoin skeptics are advocates of blockchain -- so I don't see a consensus here. >Ok, so what do we even mean when we say “blockchain”. The answer is really that nobody knows, it’s not a term that has any precise definition and it really depends on who you talk to and the context. Blockchain is useful and afaik does have a working definition -- it solves a very real problem of how to prevent bitrot in the long term storage of data for example.

ForHackernews 6y ago
> Blockchain is useful and afaik does have a working definition Speaking of unsupported assertions...
blockyhead 6y ago
He really did write "The answer is nobody knows"? Blockchains are not that hard to understand. So he plainly admits he doesn't know what he is talking about?
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  What's hard to understand about a really slow append-only database where you have to set a barrel of crude oil on fire in order to make a commit? (edit: yes yes, 'proof of stake' blah blah)
  - blockyhead 6y ago
    Why bother explaining it to you? I recommend you try to work in other areas.
  - noxer 6y ago
    DLTs (blockchains) solve the double spending problem in a decentral (trustless) way. Thats "the definition" and what separates it from other similar tech like git, a synced databases or a write-only database. PoW/PoS are just rather stupid ways to implement this its not needed at all. Lookup federated byzantine agreement (FBA) for DLT systems without it.

ForHackernews 6y ago

Seriously though https://fishtoaster.com/images/Blockchain.png https://fishtoaster.com/images/Blockchain.png

blockyhead 6y ago

Right alongside with giving computers more than 16K RAM.

tomw1808 6y ago

I am amazed - is that the same category of people who said "the Internet" isn't going anywhere?

xiphias2 6y ago
Where is the HN moderation? At this point multiple the articles on the front page are just about hating Bitcoin without any substance. I'd consider canceling my subscription if HN was paid (though there are still many cool articles)
- tomw1808 6y ago
  Paid in BTC, can't refund.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    That's strange, I never had problem with getting a refund after paying with BTC. Have you had issue with it?
    - tomw1808 6y ago
      Haven't seen anything from MtGox so far, have you?
      - xiphias2 6y ago
        I’m really sorry for you if you kept your money there. I alway keep it in my own wallet. How much did you lose?
        tomw1808 6y ago
        That's alright, it were different times. No Ledger or Trezor at the time, no fancy browser plugins or great wallets. A lot changed. But still, 2021, most Credit Card companies will put an (more than) elevated risk score on transactions when done for crypto sales. I know this first hand, although I can't go into details, if you're a payment provider dealing with crypto companies - even with best-in-class KYC and AML checks - your rejection rate will be significantly higher than usual. What tells us that? Many times Crypto is used to scam people, because there is no SEPA network to get the money back.

wtf_is_up 6y ago

The daily crypto FUD piece. I look forward to these.

noxer 6y ago

In short: "I dont have or see a use for X therefore X must be completely useless to anybody" Also its DLT not blockchain there are DLTs without chains of blocks, without PoW/PoS etc.

eddhead 6y ago

Blockchain is merely going through the GamerGate moment now, that's why you're seeing so many articles all at once trying to bash it. From all angles

IdontRememberIt 6y ago

Central banks want to keep control on money. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-IZZxyb1GI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-IZZxyb1GI) They will crush any entity who will threaten that. Central banks are all working on CBDC (Central bank digital currency). The day they will be ready, I can suppose they will eliminate the threats.

CawCawCaw 6y ago

Since no one has mentioned cert transparency yet: https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.03914 https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.03914